nice try, but you didn’t answer the question at all. you avoided it.
Because that proposition would have to assume things about the Night Elves and their power in Kalimdor that are vastly different from the game world assumptions. In case you haven’t noticed, I’ve not been one of those calling for a Nuremberg treatment of the Horde. I’ve not been one of those who are gnashing their teeth because the Night Elves arent’ the “third faction” that they were in WC3. Those super empowered Night Elves haven’t existed since the RTS.
For the Night Elves to have eliminated the Horde from Kalimdor would have neccessitate that the least few expansions be very different games than what played out and without seeing such an execution there’s nothing to comment on.
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We literally got confirmation, both from Horde POV and Alliance POV that …Malfurion and Tyrande alone were enough for the entire horde and that was before Night Warrior Tyrande.
So I’m not sure if I can take your statement here to its fullest, nor are the night elves on the “high ground” and even if they suffered a serious blow, the horde is in no position to do anything against them, especially at the moment.
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In case you missed the entire War of Thorns… they lost. they were only barely holding ground against half that force while Saurfang was working on a pincer move through the Felwood. And once that pincer was closed, it was game over.
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I’m not a fan of leaning back on two superpowerful characters for the benefit of any race, but this is omitting quite a bit about the Night Elves defensive capabilities, including that Tyrande simply wasn’t there until the very end.
It’s also leaving out geography, terrain, the story’s decision to put their army somewhere else, the failure of their allies to assist, the inconsistent presentation of distances, strategic imbecility, the range of catapults, and a dozen other things that were shoved out of the way by writers who simply wanted to make Teldrassil happen, no matter what.
Factors which, if we want to be fair - and I do - rank among the ones that were ripped away from the Forsaken’s defensive ability as well. There is nothing reasonable about either event, and we certainly shouldn’t treat them as a baseline for assessing strength.
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sylvansa was loosing…before saurfang intervened…what you thing would have happened to sylvanas if saurfang would not stop malfurion from…killing her?
And …if tyrande would there too - even without night warrior power - the horde would loose again…so, this plot was only possible because Tyrande wasn´t there, the army was gone and Malfurion and a skeleton force were present during the wot.
After wot, the now weakened but military intact night elf beat the horde back, with easy.
So… 
I appreciate some of the discussions that have occured here, and I appreciate those of you who are at least willing to consider that other people might have a different opinion than you, which you might consider completely wrong.
I also appreciate those of you who tried to communicate that the story as it has been presented to us isn’t done well–in such a way that we can really understand character motivations and how/why they are making the choices they have made. Even in some of the instances where it is spelled out (like the lead up to BFA in which we got the stories about Callia, the failed reconnection of the dead with their living counterparts, and the very first inklings of what would turn into the Fourth War,) they still leave out some fairly explicit, and in my mind, important reasoning for why things are being done.
As a quick for instance: I was considering the point someone made here about the Alliance just basically moving on from Teldrassil, the failed attempt to reclaim Lordaeron (thus hurting Sylvanas’ base of power (for those of you wondering why we didn’t attack Org instead,)) and the subsequent running off to new territories. What I could glean from my own thoughts on strategy (mind you, nothing that’s outright stated in the game or the books from what I can recall,) Sylvanas went looking for allies, freed Talanji and was heading to go make a deal with the Zandalari–thus bolstering her forces, since she knew the Alliance, after both Teldrassil and Lordaeron were going to want some payback. She chose bolstering her forces, and the Alliance, hurting from Teldrassil and the staggering defeat at Lordaeron (blighting the whole place wasn’t something either side expected, at least from my read when I played through the Horde campaign there,) chose to seek allies in turn–choosing a naval ally–namely because …?
If I had to make a guess, since again, it isn’t specifically or categorically stated elsewhere, the Alliance needed a strong naval partner because the night elves (rightfully) weren’t going to send their navy away from northern Kalimdor again, and the Stormwind fleet was still recovering from the skirmish with the Zandalari (which is what prompts us and Jaina to go seek aid from the Kul’Tirans–as they’re close by and would make great allies!)
At the point when Tyrande seeks aid from Anduin, by the way, the Alliance is committed to the raid against the Zandalari because they are trying to forestall the Horde’s acquisition of new allies–something I can understand wanting to do. If say, Anduin had been like, “Sure. Let’s let Sylvanas get her hands on lots of trolls and their clearly superior naval power while we go and take back some land for the night elves, though they still won’t really have a home. But hey! We’ll have gotten some land back and some revenge, too. --oh. Sylvie’s coming back with an army to crush us all? Uhm…crap. Where’s she headed so we can figure out where to set our defenses up?” – In my mind, that would be pretty poor strategy. Not only do we condemn a potential ally (Kul’Tiras) to a war on their own against the Zandalari and the Horde (assuming things go well,) but then we’re still working on recovering from two failed battles without anyone else to turn to when and if the Zandalari decide to head out and conquer the world. And lastly, we allow Sylvanas to control the battlefield by leaving her there unopposed.
Now, you are welcome to dispute that, and to think otherwise about it, and I’m happy to hear your thoughts on that, but from where I’m sitting, that’s what I could glean from everything that isn’t actually stated in the game or books–hence why it’s an obvious point for debate and conversation as far as I’m concerned.
The other point I wanted to address was someone saying that there were no drawbacks to Tyrande taking on the power of the Night Warrior. While at the time, I think that argument stands (when she decided to do it,) I think our current situation can give us a better idea that perhaps that simply isn’t the case. Sacrificing one of the few leaders of the Alliance who could withstand Sylvanas’ attacks and actually thwart them–having won decisive victories in Darkshore, and choosing instead to chase after a personal vendetta within the Maw (when several leaders begged her not to do so, even as she was jumping into the hole with the rest of us,) belies, to me, this idea that she was thinking as a leader and about the best interests of both her own people and the rest of the Alliance that was still left behind in the real world. We had no idea about whether or not Sylvanas’ whole army was in the Shadowlands; it’s possible she might have risen up in Azeroth again while we’re off galavanting in the realms of the dead with very few people left at home to stop her.
That said, just to get back to the first point–I personally feel like Tyrande’s decision to take on the burden of the Night Warrior, without consulting with those fellow leaders of the night elves that many have you have rightly mentioned (at least not from any materiel seen or hinted at in the game or books,) was a personal decision–rather than a well-thought-out and reasoned plan done in concert with the will and wishes of the night elven people. In that regard, I consider it in some ways selfish, lacking in true leadership, and very much an emotional, personal response. That said, I also revelled in every moment of it when I played through it as an Alliance character because I thought, “Damn. Yeah! Finally! WE’re kicking some booty!”
But as many of you have mentioned, what did it really accomplish? That Alliance players have nothing tangible to show for those efforts is absolutely frustrating, and if that’s not how the story is meant to feel, then Blizzard did a pretty crap job of conveying it.
Was Tyrande embracing the Night Warrior harmful to the night elves? shrugs I’d offer that in the moment, no. As Sylvanas kidnapped leaders of the Horde and Alliance, no. But in those moments when a leader’s guidance and vision were needed, I feel like Tyrande was instead consumed by that desire and need for revenge still.
Something else I find really frustrating is that many of you mention Malfurion as being another one of the leaders of the night elves, but all throughout BFA we barely saw much of what he was doing. He defended Teldrassil until its burning. He went to war with Tyrande after she took on the power of the Night Warrior…and then what? Where is he as the sky over Icecrown is shattered? What is he doing, apart from, I can only hope and assume, seeking to create a new home for night elves and Gilneans who are STILL displaced from their own homeland? As I have often complained, and will likely continue to complain, not seeing what the various leaders of both the Horde and Alliance are doing can get very frustrating. Sure there is only so much time for story and development in each expansion cycle, but having snippets of story here and there, a momentary quest where we’re directed to meet with our faction leaders (ostensibly so that we know what they’re up to while the other leaders are center stage for said expansion,) would do a lot to help convey the various races and ideologies present in each of the factions.
To those of you saying that I have forgotten about the other leaders of the night elves, though–in part, you are right. The night elves -would- endure without Tyrande as their leader. She is not the end-all, be all of the night elves. But her vision and leadership have guided them for a long time–especially and even when the druids, and her own beloved, slumbered. That’s not a loss from which you just pick right up from and carry on. It would leave scars.
Perhaps one of the most ironic things about Tyrande taking on the power of the Night Warrior is that one of Sylvanas’ goals in what ultimately culminated in the burning of Teldrassil was to decimate one the oldest, native, most powerful allies within the Alliance by killing Malfurion or Tyrande. By taking on the mantle of the Night Warrior and accepting that the power would very likely kill her in the end, Tyrande was giving Sylvanas exactly what she wanted.
I can’t say what these latest cinematics were trying to convey with any sense of a definitive answer, because we aren’t given one. But I can consider the narrative arcs that have been presented over the years and see the threads that could lead toward what the Elune cinematic gave us. I can also agree that whatever Blizzard intended here, they didn’t tell the story well.
Last, but not least, I can see the opinions of others as they try to consider how their individual characters might try to make sense of all of this, and I can get a sense from just the discussions we’ve had here that because of that poor story-telling, we’re left to draw our own conclusions for how our characters react. And I get the frustration, anger, and complete lack of desire to engage in a meaningful discussion about this outside of that narrow character arc for many players because it seems like their thoughts and feelings are simply being ignored.
Were I more invested in my own vision of World of Warcraft, I might feel that way, too. Instead, …I am willing to jump through some hoops, accept some wonky head-canon, imagine various scenarios in which the moments we’ve been presented with make some sense (for my characters, if nothing else,) and find enjoyment in that. One of my favorite things about this game is its community–and especially the people here in the Lore section of the forums who are willing to share in the love of a story–well-told or otherwise.
In closing, I just want to say thank you; I may not know how to engage with all of you, and I know I can write in such a way that my thoughts aren’t always well-conveyed; but at least we’re here sharing, butting heads, loving/hating, playing, and conjecturing together. 
So, thank you.
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If you’re interested in part of the story that never became a part of the story, the comic hub has the “Reunion” about Jaina, and this story, which is a rather solid set up for the upcoming events, just has no place in what we got in the game.
Source of the comic: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/story/comic/jaina-reunion
The approach of the current narrative team seems to be to introduce a mystery or a story element, and then place it aside for arbitrary time, and come back as if no time was passed.
How the players feel about it? I would say, Baine in Shadowlands is the best embodiment of this story telling approach. But there are more horde oriented people on this forum then I am, who I am sure can better explain how they feel about Baine as example of “Chekhov’s gun that never does anything or does by the time people forgot and moved on”.
gl hf
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Except I don’t want to play in someone elses greener yard, I want my grass to be greener even if theirs withers and dies in the process.
The Alliance got absolutely nothing good in BFA story wise, everything we thought might have been good turned out to be just as crappy in Shadowlands. I just want the Alliance to get the catharsis against the Horde it’s deserved since this games introduction before any talks of ‘cross faction raiding’ or ‘faction merges’ even enter the realm of possibility.
This is weird and not a normal take.
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Let’s say in this scenario the entire reason your neighbours grass is greener is because they go out of the way to sabotage your own then yes it would be.
Stupid analogies, yuhu!
How was it … Are you ready to cut down your tree for the sake of green grass?
What a tree is, I don’t know. Like an A-list character.
On paper there is a room for stories that instead of following IRL logic do some arbitrary stuff. In practice with the current narrative team it’s unlikely to work out. Even the current story arc adds to it.
The Grand Reception
Arios Riftbearer: Wisdom is not simply knowing the right thing to do in every situation. It is a tool you use, yes, but it is also something you share, and something you take in kind.
What is this logic?..
Nikolon
I remember you there when I fell, Maw Walker. It is not your fault, nor Uther’s fault, nor even Eridia’s fault. In fact, it was not my fault, either.
We’ll be on track to best stories ever with this logic used, sure /kappa
gl hf
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This line this week pissed me off so much cuz it’s literally this song:
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That is a sad song. Fitting for a comedy show maybe (not sure if that one was a comedy).
But it does have a peculiar consequence. Because such approach would mean that not only lore nowadays is “sort of lore”, but also this removes cause-effect from the narrative IMO. Now anything can happen at any point, new things appear, plot line stop whenever and take random turns with no set up, etc.
I have no doubt people in the narrative team have nice personalities. But with this approach, maybe that’s not enough for a functional product.
gl hf
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Main issue here, imo, is that the Horde were complicit. You can’t consider the events of Siege of Orgrimmar and reconcile it with the War of Thorns. We watched a Warchief go off the deep end again. We stood by and did nothing again. Using the blight? Crickets. Blighting her own troops? Crickets. Animating the corpses of our own blighted-to-death soldiers? Crickets. A Warchief with virtually no internal support among her own faction (apart from The Forsaken) intimidated everyone too much to act openly. A society of Might-Makes-Right, honorbound, glory in death, warrior-centric figures, heroes, and living legends were too scared to act openly. This is why I continue to call Sylvanas a narrative black hole (like Anduin). Everything that meets her casts aside all thought, reason, and identity to allow her story to continue to drown out what little appeal this game still had.
Basically, Tyrande was justified. She wasn’t acting irresponsibly. She didn’t lay siege to Orgrimmar or Thunder Bluff or Bilgewater Harbor, she compromised—she ate grilled cheese off the radia–uhh, err, I mean… she settled for hunting down Nathanos and Sylvanas instead. She didn’t needlessly risk her people, she pursued vengeance alone. And when she achieved the goal of her bargain, Elune yanked the leash only to moments later offer her the choice between vengeance or renewal.
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It’s a comedy with a lot of self criticism on the part of the creator (who is also the protagonist, ie the woman in the song)
eg:
- cyberstalking your ex’s new person they’re dating
- the insecurity that comes with starting anti-depressants or other psych meds
- generalizing about men (except gay men)
Yeah speculating on the lore has been completely killed this patch
There’s no point to it
There’s no logic, sense, or sequence to the lore
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I’m going to say that this is a pretty high effort troll attempt from the OP.
Almost believable. The victim of genocide and torture needs to make up to their abuser. And that in a huge paragraph, not bad.
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well, the game presents it as
Lor’themar Theron says: Sylvanas has the loyalty of the people. So long as she is warchief, this war will rage within their hearts. We cannot stop it.
© Stay of Execution (Horde)
That storytelling continues. I am not sure if it’s sad, or just a reason to poke fun out it.
Devs might not be happy though. I am not sure if it makes much sense to tell them personally that their work is awful. What stops me is that it’s not even clear who did what. Then it would at least be possible to try to figure out the thought process behind concocting such monstrosity.
Or not, given the rumours that blizz employees are confused by the player reaction because internally domination shards are seen as tier sets equivalent.
gl hf
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.>Taliesin.
Oh wait this isnt the meme sec
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/861659221668659230/867480102958923816/t6oucl.mp4
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