do you know yuri
Or just turn it into an unlock system. If you beat a +1, then you unlock +2 for that specific dungeon. Just like the way Torghast works. I agree, the key system is stupid. It’s one of the other reasons I don’t run them. It’s too much of a hassle to join or create a group and get going.
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I think the key system can be improved (letting us trade our keys in was a good first step), but making us do every dungeon at every level before we can do the next level… eh.
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They should do away with m+ entirely and create a better system that is not a speed runner game.
Solving the problems with M+ is tricky, because right now it is in a “good enough” spot as far as those problems are concerned, and these kind of radical changes could make the experience so much worse.
M+ serves so many different audiences with competing interests. M+ is dungeon content for more laid-back players who have geared beyond M0, filling the Vault is another demographic of players, you have players who want to push rating hard, and all sorts of folks in between. The existing system is a balance that works for many different groups of people.
Bricking keys has a functional benefit in that in creates actual stakes and a sense of success and failure more comparable to the raiding experience - most raid guilds have a finite number of hours per week, so you don’t have an infinite number of pulls. If you wipe all night you don’t end up with anything. In M+, if your goal is to progress, at a certain point you will run out of keys in your group of players. You can raise up new keys and get back in there, but of course you start to get a diminishing return where you need to level up the key just to get another shot.
Removing bricked keys also makes suiciding your keys to fill Vault far too easy. In my mind, it is already at the point where I think an untimed run shouldn’t count towards Vault, but the less-skilled community would absolutely riot, so that will never happen, so this is a compromise to keep that situation under control.
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good point. in no other content (that I can think of) does failure = the same rewards as success.
I do not like the key system. But everything I could come up with would potentially be even clunkier, especially in the UI aspect without requiring everyone to read an article.
M+ also needs some heavy revamps on loot. I do not like the great vault, or the weekly cache quests when they’re up. I strongly dislike lottery loot. You either win or feel bad. But on the other hand M+ is spammable and you have to account for that. Or you eclipse other gearing methods.
Personally, I think a rework of the valor upgrade system could fill that role. Remove the cap(…or set it way higher such that you could theoretically fully upgrade a piece or two per week). Then give more valor at higher key levels. Such that no one would realistically upgrade an item from 200 ilvl to 250 running +2s. Let alone an entire gearset. Balance upgrade costs with the valor earned, and toss out the IO unlocks. You shouldn’t fundamentally be hitting the upgrade cap without running the top level M+'s anyways. So the IO unlock would be superfluous.
Tack on M+ specific sets/bonuses. And you may have something. I get that bonuses and stuff can be hard to come up with, especially after 16+ years at this point. And I’m perfectly willing to accept recycling older tier bonuses for this. Because at the end of the day, it may not be “original” but it’s still better than what we have.
No one upgrades a base rank 1 item to rank 12 already, so your point doesn’t make sense. Also, no one can upgrade an entire gear set because of the valor cap. Unless the season goes on another 9 months and at that point vault gear should have replaced them.
If anything, untimed keys should drop no gear and not count towards vault. Do raiders get vault drops for not killing bosses?
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I am talking about a “new” valor system.
I’m trying to not get into a long-winded rant about it, but my suspicion is that this is why Blizzard has allowed the encroachment of Dom Sock gear into M+. Blizzard can’t nerf the Welfare Box directly, so they’re just indirectly making a good chunk of M+ loot less valuable by making better stuff exist from the raid but not putting a higher ilvl on it. I expect us to loop all the way full circle back to set bonuses existing and working in M+, which I think will be a bit of a problem as people more easily understand why not having a set bonus is bad compared to these gems.
Time will tell though.
This will almost certainly never happen, especially when Blizzard has been buffing, not nerfing, the loot that drops from bricked keys.
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Yeah I know it will never happen, but doesn’t make sense to reward utter failure. 2 hours in a +15 might not give you points, but it still gives 252.
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The only thing that really allowed pugging was raider IO. Without it people would have gone to the greater lengths of maintaining networks of trusted players.
Like mythic and to lesser extent heroic raiding. Until progression and power creep makes them easy they’re organized group content because imagine throwing a LFR group into a mythic raid instance. I’ve seen them wipe on the first trash pack in LFR.
I think that’s what a lot of these “make it queue-able” arguments fail to understand. The reality of the challenge is that it’s beyond what you can reasonably expect from a first come first serve queue.
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I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, you should be able to do Mythics…and each affix you add as the player adds an ilvl and a difficulty attached to it, so if you want to try and run the dungeon with all of them added, more power to you.
Not only would this be fun to watch. It would help classes that get over looked because of affix weeks.
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I feel attacked 
Untimed is still completing the run though. It should still drop the eod loot but really the vault from untimed should be eod ilevel.
I actually think this is a great idea
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Get rid of affixes too.
They have that its called M0.
End of dungeon, sure. If you took so long that you don’t get any points though, it shouldn’t count towards the vault either. The major challenge of M+ is the timer.