They need to be.
PVP is not a playable game mode until everyone is on a level playing field.
Losing your way to max conquest (winning one of five games in a row) is terrible and in absolutely not one single way good for the game or its players. PVP is not fun until you have full Conquest gear.
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U want conquest come to midnight zones, you shouldnât be getting conquest from old areas like the TWW.
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Hi Deacon and RB from an RR guildie who is incognito right now - I agree with you in SPIRIT but not in practice. The war crates still fall in TWW / Dragonflight / BFA zones, and are (were) still fought over⌠so why remove the incentive to do so without removing the crates themselves?
Maybe on the server you play on there was no competition for the crates from older expansions, but on Moon Guard there was still plenty of competition, plenty of world PvP. While farming those old zones Iâd ask in guild chat regularly for help killing our familiar enemies, and would often get that help! It was a ton of fun. It kept old zones relevant in a way that they otherwise do not experience. Warmode shards in old zones are GHOST TOWNS besides the occasional crate farmer, and now, they will be dead dead.
I fundamentally believe that PvP should not be prohibitive to newcomers, and that gear largely should not matter. I think I speak for all of us when I say that weâre not in it for gear, weâre in it for competition and fun. If we wanted to play the loot minigame there are tons of other avenues we could explore that are non-competitive and unfulfilling, but we want to PvP for reasons other than ilevel.
I think Legion was the gold standard for gearing, where you could get right into arena on a fresh max level character that was still in heirlooms. That system was extremely alt-friendly and very inviting to newcomers. (If anyone has forgotten how it worked, for every âxâ ilevel youâd advance youâd get a 1% bonus stats to a maximum of 5%, such that there was still a power creep, but SIGNIFICANTLY less so. This would only apply in instanced PvP [bgs/arena] so out in the world, youâd keep your PvP gear advantage. A 5% difference was negligible enough that you could still enter arenas at a TINY disadvantage even if you were hideously undergeared.)
If plenty of people can easily play alts, and plenty of newcomers can enter the scene, we ALL win. I literally WANT noobs to queue up so that I can dunk on them. I WANT PvP to be more approachable so that my friends will join me. I WANT to PvP on my alts without committing a full 9-5 in order to gear them. I want more people to join the guild and ask questions and learn the game! And TWW crates added another avenue for players to do that.
And now⌠itâs arbitrarily more difficult to do that, for little reason, with no announcement, as implemented on a non patch-day morning. Now weâve got to deal with fewer conquest crates, pray for good RNG, and fight 40 v 40 battles regularly that the servers are unequipped to handle (as Troolys rightfully mentioned above).
These guilds run around with 2 full raids in order to win fights. Without those two groups they would lose.
You continually chime in on content you donât even do.
The only one of you yappers that Iâve ever seen in a wpvp fight was Depawchery and it didnât end well for them.
You were fanboying for MDGA for months while in their guild and never saw you out in any fight with them.
Kind of hilarious how you assume things about people in PvP communities and you donât have the testicular fortitude to leave the safety of Silvermoon.
I thought it was a hoot also 
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Would appreciate it if we could talk about the topic at hand instead of whatever this weird posturing is-
PvP is already prohibitive to newcomers for many reasons. Any process which makes it easier to gear (such as TWW crates dropping conquest) should remain part of the game. By removing those farms, casuals lose a reliable way to stay relevant, and those zones become totally derelict. It hurts our ability to quickly gear out and maintain alts.
There WAS PvP combat in TWW zones for crates, and now there will be none, to nobodyâs benefit. The Midnight zones on Warmode shards are bound to become makeshift EBGâs despite the servers being TOTALLY unequipped to handle them.
Isnât it weird that the change wasnât announced anywhere, either? And that the change was made many hours after the servers came back up on Tuesday?
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Very weird.
Seems like the fun police got us again.
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Their intent is likely to encourage raids to see and fight each other for crates.
I do all pvp content. But as usual youâre lying.
Well sure, itâs easy to kill solo players in a raid.
fanboying? I was in a few of their raids that wiped you guys. You just canât see anything while hiding in the back.
What are you even talking about? Iâm out there solo all the time, you just donât see anything behind your raid. Get a grip kid. You look insane at this point.
It should be unmoderated to an extent. Not every system that actively hurts the mode should just be left alone. If the point youre trying to make here is that crate raids dominating everything should be fine because âWar Mode is unmoderatedâ then no, thats not what I mean.
Reason for that is, War Mode replaced PvP servers because Blizzard deemed them as heavily imbalanced and people complained about wanting a way off of them. War Mode has sharding, which tries to keep things relatively balanced. Itâs not perfect, and thereâs many things they should change about sharding (like there being too many shards sometimes) but the point is, itâs there to try to achieve a balance. The problem is, it canât account for outside raid groups, and itâs not realistic for it to try to balance a shard when something like this happens. Imagine the game trying to pull players away from the shard theyâre currently on just because a crate raid showed up, thatâd be a mess.
I think youâre overestimating how uncommon that is. It might not be every group, but it happens more than youâre making it out to be. People will literally run alts to hold or swap shards, and if not alts, theyâll use friends to do the same thing.
And again, this isnât about âpolicing how people play.â People can do whatever they want, the issue is when the system incentivizes behavior that actively makes the mode worse. And to answer your âhowâ clearly, crate raids kill organic fights. You get a large group thatâd never normally be in that shard dropping in and steamrolling the local shard population. I see it all the time, youâll have a decent 8-10 vs 8-10 fight going, and right as one side is about to win, a 40 man raid shows up and wipes everyone. Fightâs over.
It also warps player behavior. People arenât joining these groups to PvP, theyâre joining to be efficient and farm Conquest, which leads to exactly what I was talking about with the shard hopping, how some will go out of their way to avoid other crate raids because fighting them just throws off their entire crate route. A fight between the two can happen sometimes, but the other almost always leaves the shard right after (usually the losing group).
And it just reinforces the perception of faction imbalance (more so felt on Horde since Alliance is the dominant PvP faction at the moment) because even if a shard is somewhat balanced, a raid dropping in makes it feel like one side is dominating. That kind of experience just pushes people out of War Mode entirely.
And this isnât a âbecause I say soâ thing. This is what actually happens. Iâve been pretty consistent about it and Iâve seen it play out over time, Iâve been playing since TBC and have watched just how badly WPvP has devolved since then. Of course thereâs a lot of other reasons for that, but thatâs for a different topic.
So, yeah, I did say Iâm glad crate farming in old expansion zones is gone. And part of that comes down to perspective. You play on an RP server, which already puts you in a much more isolated environment compared to most servers. Youâre not really seeing what the majority of shards look like. From my experience, those old zones were empty. Maybe youâd occasionally see a crate and a small group going for it, but they were rarely contested in any meaningful way. It wasnât this consistent, lively PvP environment youâre describing.
And even if we assume your experience was more active, that doesnât really address the bigger issue. If servers could actually handle 40v40+ fights, and if crate raids reliably fought each other without constantly disrupting local fights, I probably wouldnât have as much of a problem with it. But thatâs not realistic, itâs not how it plays out. What actually happens is one group steamrolling smaller fights or hopping shards to avoid real competition (similar to these synced premade communities avoiding other communities, which is funny considering they also lead these crate raids!)
As for gearing, weâre just gonna disagree on that. I donât think gearing is a bad barrier, especially because we all chose to play in an MMORPG. Thatâs what you signed up for. You made a character, you leveled, you were introduced to this gearing system and that better gear makes you stronger⌠and realistically, gearing has never been easier than it is right now. And with the changes Iâve suggested, itâd be even easier, just coming from sources that actually involve PvPing.
Thatâs the difference. BGs, skirmishes, arenas, those teach you how to play your class while you gear. Crate farming doesnât. You can fully gear someone through crate raids and theyâll still get rolled the moment they step into actual PvP because they have no experience (assuming weâre still talking about new players here).
So when you bring up barriers to entry, I agree that we should lower the bad ones. Confusing systems, lack of guidance, poor reward structures⌠but tying gearing to actual PvP gameplay isnât a bad barrier, itâs part of the learning process. Iâm all for easy gearing, Iâve said that multiple times now. Just not in a way that replaces PvP with flying around in a raid group barely engaging with the game (I still remember this one guy I argued with about this, who didnât want crate farming to end because he was saying he wouldnât be able to AFK farm anymore, LOL).
If anything, having multiple viable ways to get Conquest that reward actual participation would be better for everyone.
I donât have the receipts, because I remember back when we check-pvpâd the person who was âcomplainingâ about you killing their alts, we called out that it was someone from your same guild at the time, and then the thread was promptly deleted the next day lmao.
From then on you just had said person start posting on Classic characters that couldnât be check-pvpâd anymore. 
No, warmode should remain totally and completely unmoderated. You are again taking the stance that warmode should be totally unmoderated except for in cases convenient to your wishes. This is silly and unrealistic for reasons I donât want to insult your intelligence by pointing out.
Negative, this is NOT a common occurrence at all. Like, full stop, I crate farm extremely regularly to maintain over 20 alts. Even despite my several accounts this is not something easily achievable. What looks like intention to you is almost always RNG and your own confirmation bias.
On FOUR of my 20 characters, sure, but on the rest I do not, and I am still advocating for crate farm relevance in prior expansions. Which server Iâm on is irrelevant for exactly the reason you described - sharding. Maybe you still think sharding on RP servers works the way it did in TWW season 1, where RP servers had their own worldwide shards and they were hardly upset by factional combat. But that was patched out in Season 2 of TWW and hasnât been a thing since. Realm is irrelevant to the conversation. Iâm even still subject to the occasional 40 v 40 clash, which the servers are not engineered to handle as you correctly point out.
I agree that itâs quicker than it has been, but isnât that thanks to crate farming? Which youâre already at odds with? I mean, youâve literally spent this thread arguing that crate farming should be done away with. Besides, in Legion, gearing was hardly even necessary in order to engage in instanced PvP. That was the dream scenario. Besides crate farming from prior expansions, thatâs the experience Iâm advocating for as well. No input from me with regards to world PvP because it is totally unserious and does not matter.
I maintain that the healthiest thing for the game is ease of access. No, I donât expect newcomers to be handed awards just for participating. But I WANT NEWCOMERS PARTICIPATING. And if in one fell swoop newcomers are both discouraged from participating AND zones from older expansions are suddenly made completely irrelevant because crate farms were unceremoniously shuttered - yeah, that sucks. Bad decision. Boooo.
Thatâs not what Iâm saying though. Thereâs a difference between unmoderated gameplay and the systems that shape how the mode is played. When I say War Mode should be largely unmoderated, I mean players should be free to fight, group, gank, do whatever. Thatâs part of WPvP. What Iâm pushing back on is a system that funnels everyone into one degenerate playstyle that ends up replacing actual PvP.
I think youâre missing that distinction. Blizzard got rid of PvP servers because of imbalance and player complaints. War Mode was introduced as an opt-in system with sharding to try and keep things somewhat balanced. My point is crate raids break that system entirely, for the reasons I already mentioned. If the argument is just âit should be unmoderated,â then what was the point of replacing PvP servers in the first place? There has to be some structure, otherwise weâre just back to the same problems that made them remove it.
Iâm not asking for moderation. Iâm saying the reward structure is off. Thereâs no good reason players should be able to half AFK and fully gear through crates, while other modes like BGs, skirmishes, and arenas require actual participation and reward significantly less Conquest for the effort.
I think youâre underestimating it because youâre part of the groups doing it, so it feels normal to you. You donât need every single group doing it for it to be a problem. It only takes a few raid groups hopping shards to completely change how fights play out. Iâve seen it enough times to know itâs not just RNG or confirmation bias.
Youâll have a fight going between two local groups on a shard, then a raid drops in and ends it instantly. Thatâs not random at all.
I mean you specifically stated here:
That youâre talking about RP servers, and that there was plenty of competition there. Sharding on RP servers still works the way it did. You guys are only sharded with other RP servers, that hasnât changed. And even then, thereâs less RP servers than Normal servers, and even then youâre still segregated by battlegroups.
No, gearing isnât easier because of crate farming. Itâs easier because Blizzard has made it easier across the board. Even in Dragonflight, when crate farming wasnât really a thing, gearing was still very accessible. Conquest was easy to get, and War Mode gear was close to Conquest level and easy to obtain.
Legion system was awful. Stat templates were largely disliked. You had no control over your stats, no real build variety, and it stripped away a lot of what makes an MMO feel like an MMO. Thereâs a reason it didnât last.
And you kind of said it yourself. You donât really care about world PvP, you called it unserious and said it doesnât matter to you. So of course youâre not going to care about the impact crate farming has on it. From your perspective itâs just easy Conquest. And Iâm not even against easy Conquest, Iâve said it multiple times, I just donât think crate farming is the right way to do it.
If the goal is helping newcomers, then the better solution is making actual PvP activities more rewarding. BGs, skirmishes, arenas, all giving consistent, non-diminishing Conquest. Bring back the original daily lockout on crates that theyâve always had, but buff them to something like 300 Conquest so theyâre still worth doing.
That way newcomers gear up and learn the game at the same time. Right now, what youâre arguing for isnât really âease of access,â itâs one method being so efficient that it replaces everything else. You say you want them actually participating, but thereâs hardly any PvP to participate in a crate farming raid.
You are still contradicting yourself to the extent that Iâm not sure even YOU know what youâre advocating for, and this will be my last reply to you because your lengthy posts dissecting trivialities line by line are not constructive.
Gearing in Midnight WAS easier explicitly due to crate farms availability - and now, it is not. Did you know that the conquest rewards for EBGâs/BGâs (which you suggest newcomers should enter in order to gear up) were reduced between TWW and Midnight? Theyâre lower now than they used to be. The conquest rewards for Shuffle and 3v3âs and 2v2âs were increased, on the other hand. But⌠thatâs the competitive content that people would already want to be geared up for in order to enter.
So on top of getting less conquest per win than we used to, we have less access to crate farms from past expansions (because donât forget that to start, TWW, Dragonflight and BFA crate farms were still viable as alternatives to TWW farming, and now are no longer options). You on the one hand argue that crate farms lead to imbalanced PvP which overwhelms servers, but on the other hand argue that crate farms donât PvP and actively avoid it.
You argue that warmode shards exist ONLY to facilitate PvP and that the manner in which that PvP occurs isnât important - yet you argue that 40 man raid groups taking advantage of warmode shards overwhelmingly upsets its balance. Again: your perspective is scattered and at odds with itself in a way that is not constructive or useful for conversation.
The result is that gearing is more difficult, more prohibitive, and takes much more time than it used to. The net effect will be reduced involvement in instanced PvP, increased involvement from crate raids in Midnight zones (which you correctly pointed out are not equipped to handle 40 v 40 clashes), and less balanced warmode encounters (which seems important to you in some cases and not in others).
Nah, at this point youâre just saying Iâm contradicting myself without actually pointing to where. Iâve been pretty clear about what Iâm advocating for, youâre just not acknowledging the distinction Iâve been making this whole time.
Iâm not trying to mandate what players can or canât do. Player behavior in War Mode should be largely unmoderated. People should be free to group, gank, coordinate, whatever. Thatâs part of WPvP.
What I am criticizing is how the systems are designed. Crate farming being overly efficient isnât a player behavior issue, itâs a reward structure issue. Saying that the system is unhealthy for War Mode is not the same as asking for moderation. Thatâs the distinction you keep missing.
Iâm not saying newcomers should go into BGs and EBGs as they currently are, because yes, right now theyâre very unrewarding. Like Iâve been saying, Blizzard needs to buff Conquest across the board and remove diminishing returns from those modes. Right now BGs give around 80 Conquest for the first win, EBGs around 125, and then it drops off to something like 10â20 per win. Thatâs not worth the time or effort when crates give a flat 60 every time with minimal effort and no diminishing returns.
And gearing didnât suddenly become easy because of crate farming. Itâs been easy since Dragonflight. Even without crate farming, Honor and Conquest changes already made gearing very accessible. What crate farming did was become the most efficient option by far, not the reason gearing is easy in the first place.
Youâre mixing two separate points together and treating them like they canât both be true.
Most of the time, crate groups avoid real fights with other crate raids because it slows down their Conquest route. Thatâs why you see shard hopping after a fight.
When they do engage, itâs usually against smaller groups, which turns into one-sided steamrolls. And in the rare cases where two large groups actually fight, thatâs when you get the 40v40 situations the servers struggle to handle.
Thatâs not a contradiction, thatâs just how it plays out.
Youâre also misinterpreting what I said. I never said âthe way PvP occurs doesnât matter.â I said War Mode exists to facilitate PvP, not to revolve around one optimized farm route that replaces it.
Thereâs a difference between letting players fight however they want and having a system that pushes everyone into the same behavior.
And again, this isnât scattered. Itâs consistent:
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Crate groups avoid meaningful fights most of the time because it slows down their Conquest route
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When they do engage, itâs usually against smaller groups, which turns into one-sided steamrolls (kills organic WPvP)
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And in the rare cases two raids actually clash, you get the 40v40 fights the servers canât handle
Thatâd be awesome if the servers could handle it, but yeah they definitely cannot. And the shard-wide lag ends up griefing people who are leveling in a zone and have no desire/ability to join the fight. Iâm certain that outsourcing that lag and those raids to other (older) zones was better for player QOL.
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Yeah no. That wasnât me. You must be obsessed with someone else.
Iâm blocking the novel writers.
For real. Like none of this is that serious.
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Itâs a joke. Itâs like theyâre running in the Adderall Olympics.