The War Rebooted

Lore Story Forum
21

Actually it’s “We’re already actively fighting each other on Zandalar and Kul Tiras, it’s only a matter of time before the fighting hits our own shores. So let’s make sure when it does we’re on the winning side. Oh and also the king of one member nation of the Alliance tried to assassinate the Warchief of the horde and was not punished. Also there is effectively weapons grade plutonium sprouting out of the ground like daisies for anyone with a grudge (like that aforementioned Alliance king) to use to escalate.”

I think when I present an alternate scenario leading to a war of thorns type event and ask others to do something similar “Uh…isn’t that still the War of Thorns, just after slightly more buildup?” is not a very constructive response. It is also incredibly dismissive of everything else I posted.

If you think a sigh and asking for a more constructive response is hostile oh well, I’m not apologizing.

And I have argued at length with Yersynia before about why I think that Lordearon would/should never happen first debating every scenario s/he suggested.

This is the first time I’ve agreed with the swap, because I don’t think it’s possible to have Anduin start a war while remaining in character.

This is the first time Yersynia agreed with me that the swap isn’t necessary.

In other words:

It was a joke.

If Yersynia has forgotten our previous arguments and/or views my response as hostile instead of the joke it was intended to be, I will apologize for that.

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22

I’m a little confused.

You said Anduin gives into pressure, but also that a faction leader goes rogue. Do you mean that Anduin agrees to help after the fact or…?

:confused:

I really don’t get why Blizzard just didn’t do this in the first place. It makes a thousand times more sense than the catapults. They could still have Sylvanas be “evil”.

I know you’re sick of the human focus and minimizing their screentime is essential to making the story more enjoyable for you (which is what I want from people here). And as much as I would have loved more (or any) participation from the Draenei, I do think the decision to evacuate to Stormwind was the best call.

In Elegy’s description Stormwind is flooded by the refugees with pretty much every available space taken up by the Night Elves even as far as Goldshire and that wasn’t even a total evacuation. I don’t think the Draenei have the resources or space to deal with even half as many, and proximity would still leave them in a dangerous location.

… I am not going to lie. I am a shallow fanthing and I will take this fanservice. Oh yes, I will. :heart_eyes:

That’s the idea!

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23

Either or. The alliance has this bad habit of only existing to react to the horde’s story. So either anduin could be pressured into acting, or another race says screw it and invokes an article 5 equivalent, forcing stormwind to participate.

I disagree.

Stormwind is the “only city where anything can happen” because blizzard forces it. Just like how it has all the exclusive vendors and portals due to blizzard shutting down any other city from being a hub, then having the audacity to claim that “it’s More popular.”

Exodar has multiple islands, is closer so it can be accessed with more than just portals, and abundant magitek to get around such problems as population and food. It also easier for the night elves have access to kalimdor for future content. Blizzard needs to dial back the “Stormwind and its allies” feel of the alliance, and what better way for other cities to do something than having anything significant happen in stormwind all the time?

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24

Why not both ?

I agree that Stormwind is a more logic choice for supplies and to access through portal and I also agree that it should have less spotlight.

All what you both said is not incompatible though. Moreover, in canon both happened !
Some ships went to the Exodar according to the missions tables and Elegy so I think both evacuations happened at the same time but Blizzard should definitely have emphasized a bit more on the Exodar.

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25

Why not all of the Alliance cities participate outside of one throwaway line in a novel that most players haven’t read? Besides, logistics have never mattered in Warcraft, until Blizzard says they do with some poorly thought out explanation that players can instantly poke holes through because they dont fact check their work anymore.

Portals should not be relied on for storytelling. Their capabilities and limits change with every writer all the while marginalizing how big this war and azeroth is. They are the equivalent of transporters in Star Trek, extremely easy to rely on to fix plot problems to the point it hurts the story.

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26

remember in Cataclysm, when all the portals to deepholm, Uldum, and all those other places we needed to go to help restore the Elements were all opened in Stormwind instead of in the city of a race that actually had shamans?

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27

Oh I totally agree, at least they went to the Exodar too even if everybody agrees that portals are full of contradictions.

For example I still don’t understand why they didn’t send troops. Their reasons was “it’s not efficient” but it was efficient enough to send thousands of elves in stormwind. Surely thousands of soldiers would have turned the tide in the Alliance’s favor.

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I think they just prioritized getting the civilians out of danger as quickly as possible. They didn’t just evacuate Teldrassil, they started with Ashenvale while the attacks were still going on there.

Their way of looking at it might have been that getting the non combatants out was better than a slow trickling of soldiers when the communities were in the middle of being attacked.

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29

It’s do to an old literature thing. Villain Act, Heroes React. Mostly this is done for stuff that is black and white and not morally grey, simply because you need the villain to be evil to justify the hero going after him.

Because blizzard doesn’t veiw the world they create as an actual world and just as a bunch of features to justify gameplay.

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30

Its also because doing anything else would mean coming up with a new story, something that’s beyond Blizzard’s ability.

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31

First of all, yeah, let’s NOT kill Vol’jin at the start of Legion. He was a good character with a lot of potential, plus he matches the themes of the “Outcast Horde” a lot better than Sylvanas does, who just wants to make the Horde into a Scourge 2.0.

Next, as other people have mentioned, REALLY emphasize just how powerful and important Azerite is - not only to make it more plot-relevant, but also to demonstrate that it’s totally worth attacking the night elves and securing Kalimdor for the Horde, even if it’s just to keep Silithus out of Alliance hands (it doesn’t hurt that another Azerite vein is discovered in Darkshore, the night elves’ own backyard. It’s a good way of raising the stakes for the Horde).

As for Vol’jin, people SAY he was too pro-peace to start a war with the Alliance, but I’m not sure about that. He’s a pragmatic leader. He WANTS peace, but he isn’t afraid to throw down with the Alliance if they threaten that peace (which they definitely have - see Greymane’s actions in Stormheim). Besides, the night elves already dispatched a fleet to Silithus, looking to drive the Horde out and take the Azerite for themselves. Seems to Ol’ Vol’jin that the war’s already underway and if he doesn’t get in the first punch, the night elves will.

Now, some people argue that Sylvanas is a good choice of Warchief because “Life vs. Death” is a good theme. I can get behind that. But Sylvanas isn’t the only death-themed character in the Horde. Let’s not forget, Vol’jin’s loa is Bwonsamdi, Loa of Death.

Here’s how my War of Thorns would go down. Instead of Malfurion, it’s Tyrande who leads Darkshore’s defense and at first, is using her Elune powers to just blast the CRAP out of the Horde forces. It quickly becomes clear to Vol’jin that Tyrande has him outmatched, and that if he is to win this battle, he needs divine help of his own.

So he summons Bwonsamdi, who proceeds to do what he does best - make a deal.

Vol’jin becomes Bwonsamdi’s avatar, a champion of death, with powers that easily rival Tyrande’s. In exchange, Bwonsamdi would have one thousand night elf souls before sunrise.

Vol’jin burns Teldrassil. He didn’t want to. But despite the night elf army taking heavy casualties, it didn’t even add up to half of Bwonsamdi’s quota. Vol’jin had to keep his end of the deal somehow…

As he watches Teldrassil burns, he knows there is truth to Saurfang’s words: “There is no honor in this.” And he can’t help but wonder…

Did he really fight so long and hard to dethrone the tyrant warmonger Garrosh…

Only to become a tryant warmonger himself?

This would be a question Vol’jin would struggle with throughout BFA. He clings to his ideals like a liferaft - that the Horde is a family, a family that’s worth fighting for. But as the war drags on, Vol’jin finds himself in situations where he must be little better than his predecessor.

Vol’jin would be an actual morally grey character.

And THAT’S why killing him off was dumb.

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32

Hmm … this is a tricky subject. I’ve long since gone on record of being someone who is just absolutely sick of the Faction Conflict and never saw it as anything more than a way to justify PvP on a storytelling level. I also have long since realized that some people seem to treat that plot-point like a “game” rather than a compelling narrative, and thus treat the Faction Conflict like merely an excuse to dust off their team jerseys once in a while; between the real story. But … if I were to humor the OPs premise a bit…

If you want to fix this War, then you can’t have Vol’jin as Warchief. After his journey in Pandaria he was a source of de-escalation, which means you’d almost needed Sylvanas as Warchief to push this current conflict. He was also extremely unforgiving and mistrustful of Sylvanas, so had Sylvie still followed through with her Stormheim plan with him as Warchief; he would have not been tolerant of her (regardless of if Genn attacked her or not in a world where Vol’jin survived).

With Sylvanas as Warchief its easier to justify an escalation of the Faction Conflict (largely due to her own behavior and Genn). It would also help to have additional outside forces pushing for the conflict (for example … Mal Ganis in the guise of Mathias Shaw, free from Antorus, and using SI:7 to antagonize the Horde to reinforce Sylvie’s natural paranoia that peace is impossible. Pushing her towards conflict, and giving more tangible weight to her argument to get Saurfang on board).

From that point on … you work largely along the same lines as we have now. Azerite serves as a spark to an already tense situation (but unlike BfA you keep the substance largely localized on Kalimdor to reinforce Sylvie’s desire to take the whole continent, and the Alliance’s fear that she has it). I would then adjust Teldrassil slightly to be Horde caused, but Azerite induced … with Teldrassil’s roots having accidentally tapped into newly surfacing Azerite veins and making the situation far more explosive than either side predicted. The Horde is still at fault for that tragedy due to attempting to capture the Tree, but its burning was not intentional … but a byproduct of a new super-ore that few truly understand.

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33

:frowning:

Boo.

I was about to respond to this, I didn’t have time earlier.

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Sorry, it was one of those late-night ramblings I made (and my late night ramblings can come off harsher than I intend) … so I decided to delete it lol. But I undeleted it for you, comment away. :smiley:

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Late night ramblings are the best ramblings. I usually look at them later and cringe. I’d say only the first paragraph might be considered harsh, but I’m a firm believer in being honest with my opinions even if people hate me for it. :upside_down_face:

I agree it’s hard to imagine Vol’jin pushing for a war with the Alliance. More likely than Anduin, but I think he’s reasonable enough to try and avoid a war when possible. I think he’d be willing to attempt to negotiate a more peaceful solution. To spare the Horde another costly war, not out of any love for the Alliance.

It could be justified of course, I just don’t think it’s very likely.

Although making a deal with Bwonsamdi and destroying the night elves to satisfy the terms of his contract is such a crazy idea, I almost wish we could see it play out. At least on a smaller scale. Not all of Teldrassil.

I like the idea of Teldrassil becoming infused with Azurite. Instead of catapults with a seriously improbable range, there could be an actual land invasion, with the Horde lore characters escaping when their siege weapons cause the tree to go boom/burn out of control.

The Alliance could believe it was done deliberately and responded the same way they do in canon, but it leaves the majority of the Horde looking much better.

A lot of people have suggested making azurite weapons responsible. This is the first time I can remember seeing someone suggest having the tree itself be filled with azurite.

36

Yeah lol! I just get a lot less tactful when I get tired lol; especially when it comes to the Faction Conflict (its a sore spot for me, I’ve just never liked its story structure).

That being said, I am one of the more forgiving people of BfA on this sub. There are several story beats that I actually like conceptually, even if I feel as though the execution of those beats has been rather poor. I’m particularly interested in the parallels of “The Fall of Quel’thalas” and the “Burning of Teldrassi’” (as well as “The Forming of the Blood Knights” and “The Founding of the Night Warriors”).

I’m also pretty much convinced that at the point of decision, Sylvanas’ choice to burn the tree was motivated almost exclusively by her “true motives” for the war; one’s we still are not privy to. She blames Saurfang sure, but it was a pretty shallow shifting of the blame (when she herself had no way of knowing at the time that he “spared” Malf; he told her he was prevented in doing do).

I feel like more and more Sylvanas is going to turn out to be the laughing Shepard “leading her blind sheep off a cliff”, from “Ogmot’s Visions”. I’m also more certain than ever that she has some link/connection to Yogg-Saron, “Hope’s End”; with her uttering stupid crap like “Hope is a disease, and I will cut it out” and claiming she can “Kill Hope”. Guess that Old God blood she died on had an effect?

People seem to assume we’re going to get Garrosh 2.0 … not sure what Warchief they’re looking at? Sylvie is not the type to die for a Warchief position she never wanted … and I’m pretty sure she is going to betray the ever loving crap out of the Horde at some point; leaving us with the bill for the War she started. The Sylvie shoe may have hit the Alliance hard already, but itsa coming for the Horde.

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I would have had it that after wrath the factions just kind of… went seperate ways. And never talked to each other.

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I agree.

Someone asked me a week or so ago if I was happy with BfA or just a few specific characters (that I tend to defend zealously) My answer was something like I’m happy with the way those characters have behaved within the story Blizzard gave us.

I feel like they have the building blocks of a decent story. But it’s like giving a toddler legos. They understand they are supposed to fit together, they just can’t figure out how to stack them properly. lol

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39

It also doesn’t help that BfA was CLEARLY pressured out the door far before it was ready to satisfy some quarterly earnings margin (with 8.0 and 8.1 being the victims of this). However, if you’ve noticed, the quality of the writing has improved steadily since launch (and its ultimately why I am A-OK with them taking extra time with 8.2, there appears to be some decent content there).

There were a number of easy fixes they could have taken if they hadn’t been rushed to fix some core story issues (mechanical issues are another matter). For example, you want a tangible reason why the Dreanei and Vindicaar aren’t present for “WoT”? Have many of the Draenei (with access to a working Naaru ship) finally deciding to rebuild and reclaim Oshu’gun and TK in Outlands.

With MU Draenor and Argus both destroyed beyond recovery, Azeroth is now the Draenei’s home … but now that the Legion is gone … they can finally focus on recovering the remainder of their tech, their people, the Broken (and Akama), and the Na’ru from that dying world and bringing them “home”. You could do the same with Thrall in Outlands Nagrand to justify his absence for the early parts of the war as well. Two very simple solutions to blatantly overlooked issues.

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40

This is my new headcanon.

Until someone from Blizzard specifically says, “No Jazia, they didn’t go to Outland.” this is what happened to the Vindicaar.

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