The vindication of Sylvanas

Sylvanas thought about her people. They had come far from their decimated origins, the yearning, confused mob of fresh corpses huddled about the ruins of Lordaeron’s wrecked capital. The Forsaken were truly a nation now: a fetid, gore-caked, hideous mass of lifeless husks, skilled in combat, devastating with the arcane arts, and unhindered by fetters of morality. They had been honed into the perfect weapon. Her weapon. And they had struck the killing blow for which she had built them. She cared nothing for their fate.

"Let them perish!" Sylvanas cried. "I am finished with them!"

Yeah, totally.

In fairness, that part you included follows directly after:

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I was thinking of this bit further up the same page.

Not saying she’s a great person or anything. It’s just that that little reaction also seems out of place compared to what comes after. Or maybe it’s just more bad writing, who knows at this point.

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I don’t know. She’s in a bit of an odd place.

  1. She just committed suicide
  2. Some warrior women are holding her captive in limbo
  3. She’s being shown visions of things supposedly that will happen

She said she wanted to die, she tried to die, they keep trying to manipulate her, and she just wants to die. She is finished with her people. She’s finished with life in general - you know - until that whole torture part:

By the way, is there some reason the Val’kyr has to take her place in the Maw? Or are we just chalking that up to, “Hey, we’re squeezing a new villain in here so… let’s just move beyond that. Or maybe it’s a clever charade so she doesn’t realize the truth… or something… or dread lords…”

Oh, no, don’t misunderstand. I’m not saying that within the confines of the story her victims are being invalidated. I’m saying Lux is incapable of seeing Sylvanas in any other light but a victim, they are invaliding Sylvie’s victims. My response was to this. They are the one saying the ends justify the means as the excuse.

Because she just cremated thousands alive in a giant tree in the service of a War she started to cause as large-scale a death toll on both sides as possible? Even among her own people? And even going to the extent of recruiting new “allies” to augment the body count and push the Alliance into doing the same? And aided in the release of an Old God because she believed he would further enhance those casualty numbers? All while knowingly sentencing all those she sacrificed to a Soul Processing plant where their eternal selves would be tortured until they ultimately ceased to exist?

Lux-"The ends justify the means.

They set that up in Shadows Rising that Anduin understands that concept. If Sylvanas succeeds in changing the universe to one that has real justice than those ends justify the means it took to get there."

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And I’m saying the story is written from her perspective.

You can’t do unreliable narrator if we’re not being told a story but are instead experiencing one through the mind and eyes of the protagonist.

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Is that block quote from a book? I’m not familiar with it. Regardless, apologies for misunderstanding the context.

There’s a lot of conversations going on and I usually come back and scroll through 60 posts trying to make some vaguely intelligent sounding ramblings about this stuff (and sometimes lose context of the particular things I’m responding to).

They give her a vision of what will happen to them without her if she dies, and she literally says “screw em, I’m done!” And only comes back for them AFTER she experiences her hell. Had she not gone there, she would have never come back. Thus, her motive for returning therefore is NOT care for them, it was HER HELL! And consequently them becoming her “Bulwark Against the Infinite” could not be more literal. Nor could her literally saying their purpose is for her use. They were her meatshield against her own afterlife … and the question always was what would happen to them should they ever cease to be of value to her? Would she abandon them again? And lookie there … she did exactly that. Who coulda saw that coming?

Man, seriously, Sylvie’s character just seems to run off Benefit of the Doubt.

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Man, I’m not even trying to say she’s well-written. I just think that’s what the story might have been going for back then, that’s all.

Although the way you put that kinda sounds funny, as if watching the forsakens’ suffering was supposed to be part of her hell. Hell doesn’t exactly do its job well if it goes “THIS IS YOUR FAULT” and she’s like “lol idc.”

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Why? For what purpose? They literally wrote a short story that completely shatters and undermines what everyone already thought her relationship with her Forsaken was for years … only to go “nope, just kidding, NOW is actually when her relationship with them is what you always though it was!” But only if you don’t take her own internal thoughts at face value and read between the lines (being very generous while doing so I might add).

Really? How backwards is that lol?!

What doubt though?

She’s not relating a story she’s experiencing one. These aren’t her fing memoirs. They aren’t even memories.

You can’t do unreliable narrator when we’re experiencing the storyline as the protagonist.

Hell if I know. Honestly, it seems like to be a Sylvie “fan” (not just enjoying her for the tragic villain she’s become, but still trying to see her as a anti-hero who truly cares for the people she’s discarded twice) … it takes 2 things. Taking quite literally everything a known manipulative liar says outloud at face value. As the gospel of truth. And reading heavily between the lines of every awful internal thought she has that might infinge upon that anti-hero vision of her. In short, the only person she ever lies to is herself.

As a cheesy attempt to make her still seem relevant after her mission statement of “kill the lich king” ended, leaving the character with nowhere else to go. That’s how I took it. In that light, “oh she actually didn’t care before but NOW she does” made sense to me as a reason to still care about her continued appearances.

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There is no reason to include the “Not Caring” part. Hell, you could have taken that entire part OUT of the story, focused more on the personal nature of her suicide, and then still incorporate her “Hell” story hook as her reason to come back. AND do so in a way that was more obvious that she realized something horrific she believed was waiting for both her and her people after Undead; and she’d protect them.

Instead, the story heavily focuses on “Her Use of Them”. Their value as a tool for her. Even in the end when she comes back for them, the literal messaging is “They are for my use, I will not allow some fool of an Orc to waste them”. Rather than just giving her a motive that kept her around, its focus was on undermining something that didn’t need to be undermined? Unless that recontextualization was part of the point.

Its heavy metal Its a Wonderful Life. Of course its bad writing. It’s allowed to also be awesome.

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This is the most disconnected part of your analysis of her character. The internal conflict, the constant refrain of “not caring” while so obviously caring so much is Sylvanas’ character.

You keep calling her a liar, but this… this is the one thing she says that you believe? The one that since BC they have gone to great lengths to show is not true?

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Maybe. Depends on whether or not the story was meant to confirm people’s beliefs that Sylvanas never cared for the forsaken in the first place. If the point of the story was to have her have a change of heart, then she needed to be in that uncaring mindset. Otherwise she’d have had something to unlive for at the start, making the suicide seem a little weirder (in my opinion).

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Really? When? When did this happen? When was she given a motive to start caring for them more as people, then her need to use them as tools? Weren’t you the one that said this happened in MoP, during the Darkspear rebellion? Which is the only expac where she’s barely in it? When did this change of heart happen and what motivated it?! And why is it that if that happened she predictably abandoned them twice?!

But why would people think that? What about the story leading up to EoN would suggest she was of that frame of mind? Even I wouldn’t have guessed that from her until I read that short story; and it resulted in the total reverse of what you’re suggesting was the point here.

Yes she did this but that’s not the point of the story. The story was that the Valk’yr changed her mind and suddenly she came back thinking that the Forsaken were so important that she had to do whatever it took to keep them alive, and it’s not simply because of selfish reasons, it’s because she saw them as an opportunity.

If we are going to swap headcanons, what if she saw the Forsaken as an army that could rival the Jailers? and that’s why she needed the Soulcage because it would have given her the unlimited ability to create DK’s like the Lich King, only unlike the Lich King she wouldn’t be tied to the Jailer and risk becoming mind controlled. That would be a good plan if she wanted to single-handedly take on Death. But Genn Greymane destroyed the Soulcage thus destroying this opportunity. Sylvanas was then forced to abandon the idea that the Forsaken could be the force she needed and she instead decided to unify the Horde and Alliance against her and force Tyrande to become the Night Warrior so that she could lead a united force into the Shadowlands to confront the Jailer. Instead of being able to challenge the Jailer as an equal she has to play the Jailer’s game and hope the souls she sent to the Maw and Tyrande’s vengeance will be enough to stop the Jailer.

I don’t believe they have written Sylvanas this benevolent but it’s just as plausible as your mustache twirling Sylvanas take. I imagine the truth is somewhere in the middle.