Alright, i’ll take your word for it. But that doesn’t really change the fact that the Forsaken blighted Gilneas, tried to keep the Worgen from reclaiming it, and has continued to be the reason why the Worgen hasn’t returned, one way or another.
don’t forget the latest reports that the blight is dissipating in Gilneas and it may be inhabitable again in the near future.
The Worgen could hypothetically get their land back.
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Wait hold up, how did the alliance know that the forsaken couldn’t raise anything but humans at the time?
The story would suck if it did.
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At some point offscreen. Well after doing so would’ve made any sense. Which I chalk up to Sylvanas being maybe the worst written character I’ve seen in this genre.
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Its the Gilnean starting zone. Sylvanas does so because its a weapon that, though dishonorable, spares Forsaken lives, which Garrosh was happy to waste in Gilneas.
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Which takes place before the events of the Silverpine storyline. And in that there’s worgen pouring out of the city and charging down the main road.
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No? Not in the slightest. I can see why you might twist things into that, but that is not how that story reads. It reads of a woman who for years kept on a mask to manipulate “her people” into tools for her revenge. Then, once that revenge had been obtained and that purpose fulfilled … she abandons them to what she is told will be their deaths. EoN recontextualizes her entire relationship up until the Fall of Arthas with her people as nothing more than a lie. She never cared for them beyond their capacity to be used by her.
And then … explicitly … the only reason she comes back for them is because she is thrown into hell and realizes that SHE still needs THEM. Returning to outright state in that damned story that while “no fool Orc will squander them” … they are there for HER use. Just as before. All she did was shift their functional purpose. The Forsaken remained every bit the valuable, yet ultimately expendable tools at the end of that short story as they were at the beginning. And from that point on, she has NEVER been presented with a sufficient motivation to actually start caring for them beyond that (or the Horde). Which was reinforced when she abandoned them again!
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Blizzard has the subtlety of an artillery salvo. I think if they wanted EoN to portray a more nuanced Sylvanas, they wouldn’t make us read between the lines.
In what universe is being compared to ammo a term of endearment?
well then you are blind Driote or possibly just ignorant.
They did want us to see a more nuanced Sylvanas, and they didnt make us read between the lines.
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I don’t have to write that novel. Blizzard does and they might.
I hope you are emotionally prepared for that as much as I am emotionally prepared for Sylvanas to die.
Like Gilneas I’ll excuse for it’s time. Because the whole idea for it was scrapped late in development. The ending of the Silverpine questline sets it up perfectly as an EBG. But instead we got another King of the Hill map - which for the record I like quite a lot.
So things not adding up straight between the Worgen and Gilnean questlines is fair. What isn’t fair is having the Worgen be the mortal enemies of a people who barely seem troubled by their existence, and by BtS they dropped that idea, then in BFA they didn’t even let them have the werewolf thing anymore.
This story is a circus.
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She used to refer to them as arrows in her quivver, which EoN explains was a rationale she learned and utilized as Ranger General.
In EoN the writers show us an evolution… if still cold and self serving (remember it used to be cannon that undead have their negative emotions intensified) she now valued the forsaken and did not see them as disposable. They were no longer arrows in her quivver. And thats a quote.
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Yeah she considers them human shields now. Joy.
Thats fair. At least get it right.
yeah because an alternative meaning to “Bulwark” as a defensive armament is: protection of democratic principles that stand as a barrier against tyranny. A bulwark of freedom… but sure let’s just misinterpret and downplay that as just “meat shields”
My god. this fandom is unreal.
Or … ya’know … not write her like that at all in EoN? I see absolutely zero functional reason to write a story that so completely undermines what people had already and long assumed to be her relationship with Forsaken, only to end it with “oh, nvm, she grew into what you all thought she was like in the first place!” But do it in one of the most vague, you HAVE to read between the lines ways possible to get that interpretation.
Or … it was a story meant to do exactly what it did; no reading novels in between the line needed. Rather than subverting previously established expectations only to revert back to those expectations … it really was just to subvert expectations. Her Forsaken were tools. Valuable, yet disposable once used. They began that story as tools. Ended that story as tools. All that changed was what function they were meant to fill, but the risk was always there that should that function lose value … they would be discarded. Hell, honestly, it sort of felt like the real message of EoN was that while the Forsaken ended that story as tools for a manipulator … they weren’t the only ones. Sylvie did too. She was every bit the witless pawn marching to the beat of someone else’s drum as they were.
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There is one bit where she’s aghast at seeing their lives callously thrown away while she’s in limbo, before she insists that she doesn’t care about them. So I imagine the story was trying to at least go for conflicted feelings about them.
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I don’t think (and people may disagree) that suggesting “the ends justify the means” invalidates the victims, at least not in the sense of saying they’re not victims (or even tragic). It normally implies the opposite. There is some bad action that is considered necessary (by someone) to provide an outcome that (supposedly) outweighs the cost.
The context is similar to the hypothetical I attached to Arthas earlier. Hypothetically, if Sylvanas knows trillions are being sent to the Maw and the only way she can stay close to the Jailer (to defeat him) is to send a million souls to the Maw, there is a rational argument to heading down that path. It’s not the only path, but there is a legitimate argument to say that, while tragic, this loss is for the betterment of all.
If, in that hypothetical, she had chosen to inform the murder hobos of Azeroth, we might have found some way to storm the Shadowlands, but in the process been decimated with losses - suffering twice as many casualties as she caused - and lose our inside person and our best chance to win the conflict swiftly. It means not only did she save trillions of souls from the Maw, but she saved a million on Azeroth - but at a heavy cost.
Just to be clear, I don’t know if that’s the story Blizzard will tell, and I don’t know if that’s even the correct choice to make, but it’s a reasonable argument. Going down that path wouldn’t absolve her of her actions either, regardless of the outcome. Nothing will make this acceptable to the Night Elves (or Gilneans or many others).
I don’t know if the narrative will take Sylvanas down that path of walking the line between the cost and benefit of her actions. Personally, I would find it to be a more compelling narrative than “Evil!” but I don’t think it’s the only compelling narrative that’s possible (and I really want to avoid the mustache twirling “she’s pure evil” ending because I find it unsatisfactory).
But I will definitely add to Droite:
I’m still not sure how BfA happened. It was pitched as a faction conflict, starts with shocking actions that were over the top, then we just kind of slid forward. There’s the command table faction missions, some world PVP stuff, some invasions (“assaults”), our weekly trip to Arathi/Darkshore, and … BoD. I guess you can add island expeditions? Does that count?
In contrast, while maybe stretching the “void” side - we get a fake Old God, some corrupted things that are basically the result of us listening to a blatantly evil talking dagger, the corrupted Naga (Azshara), Visions, Black Empire Invasions, and Ny’alotha.
After the initial territories, we get two territories we both go to and try to make friends and both work against the bad guy in the zone. Seriously, what the hell was going on?!
And this leads to my biggest concern with the Sylvanas storyline - whatever happens, I just want a decent, reasonable, somewhat cohesive story that is entertaining and intriguing. I don’t want “I’m evil!” or “Wait… the Jailer is BAD?!” or "Thanks for explaining it Anduin, I didn’t realize I was on the wrong side, pew pew, now we’re all friends and the Shadowlands are free!"
If she’s willing to die because the Jailer has Nathanos trapped in some cell being tortured, fine, she’s selfish but found love and is willing to die for it. If she’s trying to save the universe, fine. If she’s had an invisible Val’kyr flying behind her every step with a dagger to her back, fine. Heck, if we beat her and find out she’s wearing a mask and underneath it she’s a dreadlord named Steve, fine. Okay, maybe not so fine on that last one, whatever.
Also, I still don’t even understand beating her because if she dies in Shadowlands, won’t she just go to the Shadowlands? And then to the Maw? Or is there a super Shadowlands? Never mind, I actually think I’m better off not knowing. If I start down this rabbit hole, it won’t stop any time soon.
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