This story is also like universally accepted as extremely bad. Like no one talks about the end of SC2 positively.
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99.9% of the Warcraft fanbase that talks about Kerrigan and the ending of SC2 and âKerriganingâ never played a Starcraft game in their life. They are mindlessly parroting a talking point.
How many people in the Blizzard community play Starcraft? How many play for the story? How many truly understand the intricacies of the whole story of Starcraft and why they made the story decisions they made?
If you see someone in the Warcraft community say something like âBut muh Kerrigan 2.0â itâs a safe bet they never, ever played Starcraft a day in their lives. Most WoW fans have never even played Warcraft 3 or any RTS.
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SCâs story is so underrated. The origin store of Kerrigan was so well done. But then again I like blizzards stories. I love the Warcraft lore BfA was a little rough story wise but not bad enough to sink the entire narrative.
Honestly, I also find it sad to hear that someone went through something like this, but then itâs not HEALTHY to attach yourself to an imaginary character instead of seeking professional help, on top of that, this character is certainly not written with the care that your situation would require.
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thank you for your unsolicited advice on a personal topic you know nothing about. 
You donât have worry about me, Iâm okay. But thank you for caring enough about some random person on the internet to make sure I have healthy coping mechanisms and seeking professional help. I do, and I am but again, thank you for your concern. I was bonding with Mawthorne who I now have an exorbitant amount of respect for.
this character is certainly not written with the care that your situation would require.
This character is written just fine in my opinion. I literally do not have a problem with how this character is being written.
Do you also want some unsolicited advice? unless you actually know someone personally itâs rude to to provide unsolicited advice about a personal matter.
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And I would wager that is a result of your interpretations of how the character is being written. And I suppose that is fine, beyond expecting her characterization needs to come at the expense of every character, theme, and faction opposed to her. But I do need to throw this question out here. What if what happens in Shadowlands is closer to my prediction than yours? Where she is the abuse victim who became the abuser, and one who is getting super played (by the Jailor and her own Primes)? The latter group who have always been way too good to be true, and hyper suspect. Their deal with her never made sense. More now than ever.
As I said, despite what you may think, I donât think she deserved the Maw at the end of ICC. And you would be hard pressed to even convince me that she was deserving of even a short stint in Revendreth, given her mental state and situation at the time. However, Sylvanas has thematically turned herself into Arthas in service of thwarting the afterlife she was convinced she was destined for; as well as apparently overturning the system she seems to genuinely believe sent her there. What if sheâs wrong? What if it was merely a convenient Lie presented to her because it would get her to move in directions convenient for another? A manipulation tactic similar to ones sheâs used against others many a time. To the point she was willing to sentence 10s of thousands (Alliance, NE, Horde, and Forsaken alike) to the very hell sheâs doing this all to avoid?
What if all sheâs done is truly built upon a façade? That her âSeeing the World as it really isâ is little more than her âseeing the world as someone else wanted her toâ, because it was very convenient for them that she did? What would it mean if the core motive she turned herself into the Lich Queen operating off of, was merely Kabuki Theatre? Such a revelation and reveal might certainly give her an avenue towards a âredemptiveâ path, but Iâm not entirely sure it would support your belief sheâs doing something good. And not utterly selfish, while conflating âwhatâs good for herâ, with âwhats good for everyone elseâ ⊠which she on occasion does.
Iâm not against Sylvanas becoming a villian. That sentiment is echoed from every Sylvanas stan. We know who this character is on a very personal level. If she does become a ânegative archetypeâ as Mawthorne and I were talking about above, she becomes a tragic character with a moral story about losing oneself to the darkness. It would be a dark lesson but it would still be a lesson. I actually really like that Sylvanas is being paralelled to Arthas and Garrosh because it mirrors their own toxicity and why they also have work to do with those other characters before they too can be accepted as redeemed.
But on the flip side, If Iâm right and Sylvanas is vindicated and redeemed as someone who makes a choice to recognize these toxic patterns and evolve then she can be a really really empowering lesson on how, even at the brink, someone can turn themselves around. The redeemed villain trope is popular because it does have good lessons to impart on the viewers, especially this particular dynamic about abuser/victim dynamics. Abusive relationships can seem like inescapable prisons and having that imagery play out like it is with the Maw being a literal Hell, and representing being trapped in this abusive relationship. it can be cathartic to watch her break free.No one has to convince us that the parallels to Arthas and Garrrosh exist, they exist to show us how far sheâs on the brink of falling. We know. The thing is, weâve already seen so many villians lose themselves that it would be a change of pace to see one actually reddemed and thatâs where the hope for Sylvanas comes from.
One thing I want to say because I donât think Anti-Sylvanas stans have even considered this before is. We fans recognize that the Burning of Teldrassil was just as much a tragic thing that happened to Sylvanas, as what happened to the Night Elves. Her âbecoming Arthasâ is a personal tragedy and we recognize that. But sheâs not Arthas, sheâs better than Arthas.
It hasnât failed my notice that many anti-Sylvanas stans are Arthas stans.
What I read is really sad and then your Sylvans logic.
Then: xenophobic, misogynist and sexist, that is outrageous and does not belong in WoW. (reported)
Edit: Sylvanas is worse than Garrosh
Just to postulate the question then, when is âthe brinkâ? The edge she is supposed to be turning away from to mark the start of that path to recovery and redemption? Because she just cremated thousands alive in a giant tree in the service of a War she started to cause as large-scale a death toll on both sides as possible? Even among her own people? And even going to the extent of recruiting new âalliesâ to augment the body count and push the Alliance into doing the same? And aided in the release of an Old God because she believed he would further enhance those casualty numbers? All while knowingly sentencing all those she sacrificed to a Soul Processing plant where their eternal selves would be tortured until they ultimately ceased to exist?
When is âthe brinkâ with that on her resume? The place of no-return? That last step before the fall? Or is said brink just a hypothetical can to be kicked down the road until some arbitrary time?
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There is no limit, but the writerâs imaginations. We watched Darth Vader blow up a planet, and he turned that crap around. Then we went to the prequels and watched him slaughter a bunch of younglings before his fall was complete. What did we miss him do in the meantime of about 20 years?
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Redemption through death isnât exactly the best storytelling trope. Even despite his haphazard BfA story Saurfang openly admitted his own death wouldnât absolve him of anything. And even if it werenât a questionable trope, is that the route weâre suggesting with Sylvanas here? Redemption through death? Or something akin to it?
I honestly dont know what they plan to do with Sylvanas. Shes had a good run, and I dont think she can really return to Azeroth unless sheâs carried there by a loving DK Anduin.
Im not suggesting anything. Im simply saying that writing is bot limited in who can be redeemed.
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That wasnât quite my point.
I meant in-universe, some folks would be super happy that the big bad dies and be happy that Kerrigan (despite her previous actions) saved the universe. Clearly, some characters wouldnât be able to see past her actions - I donât find that unreasonable either - but some would be willing to do so.
Out of universe, I can absolutely say her story has a lot of odd turns and Iâm not exactly a fan of it. Iâd personally argue I donât mind the ending but my qualms are with some of the steps that occurred along the way. I readily admit however that also means I donât like the ending as a fit for the (entirety) of the preceding story told.
But if youâre a random person in StarCraft, never harmed by Kerrigan, never lost loved ones to her actions, but Amon shows up and starts wrecking stuff - hey Kerrigan saved the entire universe? Wow, sheâs awesome! Yeah I heard from my neighbors she did some bad stuff, glad to see her join the good guys. In-universe, redemption will always based on the point of view of the character involved.
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I have a question for you and any other Arthas stan who wishes to chim in.
If they write a story where Arthas isnât redeemed but she is as part of a arbuser/victim relationship dynamic. Would that be enough for you to give up on trying to justify Arthas and his behavior towards Sylvanas?
If they redeemed and justify her and acknowledge that in their dynamic he was the abuser, and she was the victim would that be enough for you to leave?
Because as a Sylvanas stan the only way they could really turn me off this story is to victim blame Sylvanas for what Arthas did to her. Thatâs my turning point and point of no return.
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I have read the same texts. I have gotten a wildly different interpretation and Iâm not the only one. Thatâs what Iâm saying. Your interpretation of the events is not the only interpretation, and you are free to your own interpretation of events but I personally believe that the text is better laid out in black and white so that whoever reading it can form their own interpretation free from your own personal interpretation.
Thatâs why I challenged your interpretation with actual book quotes.
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thatâs an interesting and plausible outcome. Anduin with his vast amount of empathy could be the only character that actually has any weight to give any villian a redemption arc. If Anduin believes that Sylvanas can be redeemed, then she can be redeemed. Thatâs whatâs really interesting considering they are setting up Anduin to have empathy for Sylvanas in these new cinematics. He may just end Shadowlands being on her side and that would be a twist I would like to see.
Going back to Sylvanasâs plan to create a just cosmos through the Jailer, she may not be the person to create that new âJust Systemâ but Anduin is with his vast amount of empathy. It could be a victory for Anduin if he had a hand in shaping the universe for the better.
Thatâs whatâs scary, they could actually pull off a situation thatâs good for Sylvanas and good for Anduin and is actually good for Azeroth. But do I trust Blizzard to actually have this as a goal or write it with the care it needs or give in to fandom pressure? Iâm leaning yes they could write something like this because their writing hasnât let me down⊠yet.
Because she just cremated thousands alive in a giant tree in the service of a War she started to cause as large-scale a death toll on both sides as possible? Even among her own people? And even going to the extent of recruiting new âalliesâ to augment the body count and push the Alliance into doing the same? And aided in the release of an Old God because she believed he would further enhance those casualty numbers? All while knowingly sentencing all those she sacrificed to a Soul Processing plant where their eternal selves would be tortured until they ultimately ceased to exist?
The ends justify the means.
They set that up in Shadows Rising that Anduin understands that concept. If Sylvanas succeeds in changing the universe to one that has real justice than those ends justify the means it took to get there.
Assuming this post was intended for me, so weâre back to making up things? Because you have the double standard and canât see that? I am fine with Arthas being punished. I would have preferred he actually go through the arbiter system for it, but that doesnât translate into me wanting to see him get a redemption. I am also fine with Garrosh, Zulâjin, and Kael being punished. I am a bit more iffy on Nerâzhul, because of his lore, but it is what it is. He deserves punishment, but he is more hazy on what sort. I thus also expect Kelâthuzad to face punishment, and hope he does. And, I expect Sylvanas to face the consequences of her actions and choices. But you continue to make things up about what Iâve said to try to villainize my stances on her.
Frankly, reading your posts, it seems you have difficulties not seeing Sylvanas in only the Light of Victim. And not also in the light of the Abuser with her own victims she became. And that is the major disconnect between our two stances. Because I recognize that she is a victim, and that that should be taken into consideration when judging her actions. It, however, does not invalidate those actions entirely; no matter how little Blizz focuses on all those sheâs hurt to deny the audience that emotional resonance with them. Which is why defaulting to Anduinâs âempathyâ to save her seems interesting, as for her victims it would be the equivalent of him Empathizing with Arthas for her. Empathy, even from the boy King, also does not just absolve her.
EDIT: In truth, as your âEnds justify the meansâ implies. You arenât just invalidating her actions because sheâs a victim; youâre invalidating her victims ⊠because they donât matter to you ⊠because you want to see her ONLY as a victim. Its easy to see her as JUST a victim I suppose if her victims are rendered mere statistics and âmeansâ. And btw, if Iâm right, and she is being tricked ⊠the means in NO WAY justified her ends. Whats your excuse then?
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The thing is that, is she really on justice side or is her view on it so messed up that her own definition is justice is the furthest thing from it. Since it involves working to damn countless souls into a hellscape of torment. This is like if Gulâdan was secretly wanted to use the burning legion to create a universe of honor or Deathwing was secretly a double agent.
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Yes. I believe so.
And thatâs where arguments about her still having humanity hold weight. She and Anduin are very similar and the parallels between them Robert Brooks and Christie Golden have been weaving into the narrative in A Good War, and Son of the Wolf, and Blood of Our Fathers, and Before the Storm and itâs finally coming to fruition in Shadowlands.
yeah⊠no. All evidence points to the contrary. There is no difference between her and Arthas/lich king.
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