The vindication of Sylvanas

Lore Story Forum
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Like, you would think that if they can afford to create 12 different class campaigns, they’d have plenty of resources to have 1 leg of the questline branch off a bit depending on what faction you’re playing.

God forbid she helps the Horde PC at least leave Helheim. Y’know, while she’s there getting chummy with its ruler who is currently the only thing keeping us there. It’s even funnier when you do it as a Forsaken cuz then she’s barely being a good banshee queen either in addition to a Warchief that leaves their people behind in a time of great crisis to pursue a personal agenda.

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  1. Okay so, in WoLK, Vol’jin is the only one in the Horde to give Sylvanas the benefit of the doubt over the Wrathgate and Vol’jin personally convinces Thrall and Varian to answer the call to aid Sylvanas, this cements that out of all the Horde Vol’jin is the only person she trusts.
  2. In Mop, Sylvanas sides with Vol’jin’s rebellion against Garrosh. In War Crimes she has a confrontation with Baine where Baine forcibly puts his hands on her and Vol’jin steps in and commands Baine to let her go. (This disagreement was set up to her locking Baine up in BfA) her and Vol’jin share rather friendly banter… this whole dialogue is what we were talking about above;

Vol’jin shook his head a sighed. “When you gonna be getting wiser instead of just smarter, Sylvanas?” He said, not unkindly.

“When the Horde itself grows wise enough to realize not to dish out mercy to those who have done nothing to deserve it.” She replied. “Garrosh might have been a good choice for leader of the Horde for a short while, but once Thrall announced he was going for good, something else should have been done.”

A smile played around the warchief’s long tusks. “Like making a Dark Lady a dark warchief?”

Sylvanas shook her head… “Power in that capacity does not interest me. I would have thought you knee that, Vol’jin.” It was the best kind of lie— one that had truth to it. She was, indeed not interested innweilding power in so blatant a fashion.

He shrugged. " who knows what you want, Sylvanas. Sometimes I don’t even think you do." - War Crimes softcover page. 135-136

  1. The Broken Shore, by her own recollection of events in Before the Storm on page 308 she calls Vol’jin her warchief. She also says the following.

The Alliance effort below, valiant as it was, was dependant on Horde assistance. If the Horde retreated now, Varian’s army would fall.

But if the Horde stayed and fought, then both armies would fall.
Sylvanas closed her eyes, each option unacceptable.– Before the Storm page 308

I’m trying to find examples of her being this selfish Alliance and Horde hating supervillian… and I just can’t find the receipts. It’s possible that she’s just written like an actual person with complex feelings about any given situation. Maybe you should re-read Before the Storm.

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This forum mostly hates the story.

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Not enough :slight_smile: .

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That’s your problem. She’s selfish as hell, she’s just never hated the Alliance or Horde. She kind of just nothing’d or used them for her own personal agenda. But frankly, so much of her Anti-Alliance rhetoric was just that, rhetoric. One built on some probably necessary half-truths, like her discussion with Vol’jin here, but ultimately it was a convenient message to keep her Arrows (or her Bulwark) dependent and in her control. Her “Alliance of Convenience” was a similar method to keep the Forsaken from integrating too much with “the primitive races of the Horde”. Which is reinforced by some of the Forsaken refugee dialogue, where they always knew she was just using the Horde (they just believed themselves to be the special exceptions).

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I would like to see your examples. Not just vauge possibilities. Show me your examples and actual canon quotes of Sylvanas being selfish. I’ve combed the lore as a fan of hers. I know she has done bad things but there hasn’t been anything to prove that she’s selfish.

Show me the proof.

You can’t, because you don’t have any.

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You make so little sense when you talk, and you make that little sense SO confidently, that I’m starting to fear for your mental health. No sane person would say the insane things you say and then act like what they said wasn’t complete gibberish.

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OK.

  • Her manipulation and use of the Forsaken as personal (and ultimately expendable) tools for her own Vendetta against Arthas.
  • Her use of the Alliance and the Horde to similar effect; for a similar purpose.
  • Her blackmailing of the BEs and Lor’themar to commit to her personal revenge trip b4 WotLK.
  • Her expansion of her Bulwark Against the Infinite, to serve as her Meatshield against her own afterlife in Cata. She was very clear they existed to be used by her in EoN.
  • Her manipulation of her own grieving younger sister after the loss of Ronin to try to get her to assassinate Garrosh; thus isolating Vareesa and cornering her so that she could raise her to serve Sylvie in Undeath.
  • Her going on a personal errand in Stormheim after she made grand promises about “avenging Vol’jin”.
  • Her attempted use and subsequent massacre of the Undead at the Gathering. With the initial agreement to even take part in it coming from a place to reinforce her control over her tools; and then when things went the other way she slaughtered any of them that might contradict her messages of “they will never accept you, you cannot live in peace with them”.
  • Her use of the Horde as a tool for a personal agenda designed to cause as high a death toll as possible.
  • Her recruitment of the ARs (using the Goodwill of other reps) to enhance the amount of bodies that could be fed to the fire in that campaign. And this is why she recruited them.
  • Her abduction of Anduin, Baine, Jaina, and Thrall to provide potential options for the Jailer’s new Grand Weapon. In service of her own still unknown objectives.

Hell, and the thing I love about Sylvanas is that she’s never even represented the Forsaken very well. True, she does understand the horrors they were forced to commit when under the thrall of the Scourge. But she was never abandoned by her own people, or her family. And it ultimately was her own choices and actions after the Scourge that strained and broke those relationships. She was never “Forsaken” herself lol!

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Its kind of you to care about my mental health, but beyond that I can’t say much. Hope you are having a good day.

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Oh, I’m not concerned for you, you’re a super antagonistic force on these forums and genuinely unpleasant to interact with. I’m concerned for people you come in contact with.

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It’s fine I understand life gets complicated sometimes.

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Yeah, No I’m not talking about your interpretation of events. Like actual canon quotes in black and white. show me the quotes from War Crimes, Edge of Night, A Good War, Shadows of the Sun. because I can do you one better, I have my books out I can check for you.

  • Her manipulation of her own grieving younger sister after the loss of Ronin to try to get her to assassinate Garrosh; thus isolating Vareesa and cornering her so that she could raise her to serve Sylvie in Undeath.

“Manipulation”? on no, Vereesa came out guns blazing like “we need to kill Garrosh” and then she proceeds to tell Sylvanas to be her scapegoat and make her poison that’s undetectable so no one believes it was actually her, because people expect Sylvanas to do bad things like this grieving little sister expected her sister to take the fall for her. No biggie, it’s not like Sylvanas is a person or anything… just a poison dispensary with loose morals and the kicker in all of this is by the end Sylvanas gets her heart broken because she didn’t think her sister would actually throw her under the bus.

Veressa winced. “I’m sorry I thought you were used to …well…”

“Being the ‘Banshee Queen’? ‘The Dark Lady’?” Sylvanas spoke in an exaggerated tone. “It’s better than rotting. At least now I have a say in what happens in this world.”

“We have less of a say than we have hoped. {…} I do not know who you are now. You are not she who was my beloved sister.”

I am… and I am not Sylvanas thought, but said nothing

“But you and I agree on one thing.” Veressa turned to face flushed eyes blazing. “Garrosh Hellscream must die for what he has done.” War Crimes page 156.

  • Her going on a personal errand in Stormheim after she made grand promises about “avenging Vol’jin”.

To save her people.

"I think often of our future, Champion. My people cannot reproduce. Are we not destined to wither away eventually? No the Forsaken will never stop fighting, Not while I reign. Not while there are beings out there with the power to stop death. "

  • Her attempted use and subsequent massacre of the Undead at the Gathering. With the initial agreement to even take part in it coming from a place to reinforce her control over her tools; and then when things went the other way she slaughtered any of them that might contradict her messages of “they will never accept you, you cannot live in peace with them”.

oh you mean like…

“I realize I do not sound optimistic. That is because I am not, I confess to you now, I wish you would not do this. Not because I would deny you any joy but because I would not see you hurt. You are ready to embrace your living relatives but are they ready to do the same? What would you do if they did not wish to see you? If they think you monstrosities or abominations instead of the remarkable, courageous Forsaken that you are? If I am cruel it is only to be compassionate.” - Before the Storm page 234

Now, before you say “she was lying!” I read this interaction as her “people pleasing” knowing full well she had every intention of killing the Desolate Council because they posed a threat to her and her control of the Forsaken leadership. again I’m not saying Sylvanas never did bad things. The Gathering was a “grey area” thing. I can see her doing what she did simply to quell any uprising because the Forsaken were without a leader at that time and she was stretched too thin to be in two places at once. But she does care about the Forsaken. She is deeply hurt when Elsie rejects her Forsaken name, thus rejecting the Forsaken and I think that really impacted Sylvanas that the Forsaken could reject her. I’m not justifying the Gathering but she didn’t want it in the first place but we all knew where it was going.

  • Her blackmailing of the BEs and Lor’themar to commit to her personal revenge trip b4 WotLK.

Blackmailing? more like threatened to relinquish support because after Sylvanas did everything she could to help Quel’thalas recover and found a place for the Blood Elves in the Horde, when the time came to actuall get revenge on Arthas for the Third War… Lorthemar chickened out because the blood elves were too weak and morale was low after Kael’thas’s defeat.

“Lor’themar.” Sylvanas’s words shattered around him in impatience. “We go to destroy Arthas—once and for all.”

Slowly, Lor’themar shook his head.

“I appreciate that you and Warchief Thrall wish us to join you on the initial front in Northrend. But we are stretched too thin. We have already received a similar request from the Kirin Tor, but I cannot in good faith send our forces north. Since the events at Quel’Danas—”

“This is not a request, Lor’themar,” she interrupted. Her eyes flashed red in anger. “You will send troops. They will accompany the Forsaken.”

“Sylvanas,” Lor’themar said quietly, “we have just fought a civil war. What can we possibly have to give?”

“Have you forgotten who is responsible for the state of Quel’Thalas in the first place? Who is ultimately to blame?” She searched his face for a reply, and when he gave none, she continued. “Well, I, at least, have not! My vengeance will not be denied, and you will give what I demand of you: the sin’dorei rangers and magi, as well as the Blood Knights.”

“We cannot spare them, Sylvanas.”

Her flaking lips curled into a sneer.

"Then you can hide here like a beaten dog if that is indeed your will, Lor’themar. Though if you believe anything can come from it, you are a fool. Do you think Arthas will be content to ignore you whilst you wait here and lick your wounds? Do you think I will tolerate such cowardice? I would warn you: those who do not stand with the Forsaken stand against them. And those who stand against the Forsaken will not stand long.

“For a while now my people have stood guard in these lands, and it is by my hand that you have any place within the Horde. You will aid us in Northrend, or I shall cease to aid you in Quel’Thalas.” - Lor’themar Theron: In the Shadow of the Sun page 5

Her expansion of her Bulwark Against the Infinite, to serve as her Meatshield against her own afterlife in Cata. She was very clear they existed to be used by her in EoN.

Oh this one is my favorite…

The army of undead that surrounded and protected the Dark Lady was still hers, body and soul. But they were no longer arrows in her quiver, not anymore. They were a bulwark against the infinite. They were to be used wisely, and no fool orc would squander them while she still walked the world of the living. - Edge of Night page. 7

How you could read that sentence and misinterpret it so badly is beyond me.

At this point I don’t have to say any more. What the books actually say hold more weight that what you remember

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Every single one of the things I stated are the canon versions of those events; even if not all of them are explicitly stated. Every single one of those acts she took and decisions she made were in service of a personal objective at the expense of those around her. Even if she “gussied them up” to look like they were for the greater good. The only thing my “interpretations” are conflicting with right now is your vision of Sylvanas. Which relies on so much “burying Sylvanas in benefit of the doubt” its staggering.

She is an awful, selfish nihilist who uses others as tools for personal objectives then discards them when they cease to be of sufficient use. And while there were certainly other facets of her characterization that could have led her other directions, there quite frankly is nothing more “Sylvanas Windrunner” than that. She has been pulling that stunt since WC3, hell since she was Ranger General. And before you state that good archers reuse arrows, Sylvanas has never once used her “Arrows in her Quiver” phrase in reference to an arrow she intends to return for. Even her Forsaken barely made it to round two of “Used and Abandoned”. And that’s only because she realized she still needed them. Not the other way around.

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Is that what we are arguing about. Cuz I don’t recall making such accusations at any point in this discussion.

There’s obviously a massive contrast between her BfA depiction and every point before that, I’m not going to deny that.

I mean, if you want me to find some blatant, clear-cut evidence that she’s a “selfish Alliance and Horde hating supervillain”, that’d certainly be the place. But that’s some incredibly low-hanging fruit that’s way too easy to pick.

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You’re proving my point, dude.

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Sorry I dont swing that way.

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Do you disagree that even if Vareesa brought it up that Syvlanas wasn’t using her sister to kill Garrosh? Because if it was entirely Vareesa’s idea, then that would make Sylvie’s “betrayal” temper tantrum (where she swore she’d never love again) at the end of War Crimes even less justified. Especially with her whole “murdering and raising her” thing. Which is information Sylvanas did not share, and was capitalizing on Vareesa isolating herself to do.

Do you disagree that she only agreed to the Gathering because she thought it would be a way to reassert her control over the Forsaken; and when things didn’t go that way she killed any undead that didn’t reinforce her message? That the Humans would never accept them, a half-truth she’s used for years to isolate and control them? Which is why only those rejected right away were allowed to live.

And she was doing what she was doing in Stormheim “for her people”? Yes, the access to more Val’kyr would have “helped” her people … they could have also condemned them just as easily. Considering she herself admits she sometimes regrets allowing them free will in BtS, Eyir could have just as easily been used to enslave the Forsaken. And that doesn’t even get into her whole “sacrificing them wholesale to a soul processing plant, and then leaving them homeless, leaderless and abandoned” … thing. Did she do that for them?

Frankly, Sylvanas Windrunner did the one thing I was afraid she was going to do after EoN. She answered the one question I had for her at the end of that story. What happens in a scenario where her Bulwark Against the Infinite becomes as worthless to her as her Arrows in her Quiver became? Would she abandon them again? And the answer was … Yes. Despite all her bravado, despite all her rhetoric about “doing it for them” … she turned out to be every bit the manipulative abuser of the Forsaken that EoN portrayed her to be.

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then pick it.

I’m just dying for one of you to actually show me where it says explicitly that Sylvanas is a selish Alliance and Horde hating Supervillian… I’ll wait for you to compile your evidence. I’ve shown mine that’s she’s actually more complex, you show me what you’ve got in your camp.

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Lady Sylvanas Windrunner yells: Children of the Grave, heed my call!
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner yells: In life, we suffered unspeakable tragedies.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner yells: We watched as our homes were razed to the ground.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner yells: We cried out in agony as our families were cut down before our eyes.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner yells: Finally, in the face of such atrocities, we were denied even the release of death.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner yells: Now, we burn this wickerman as a symbol of our victory against old enemies!
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner yells: We paint our faces with the ash to send a message to new enemies - a declaration to those who fear and revile us as monsters.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner yells: To those who would question our place in this world…
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner yells: We are NOT monsters! We are NOT the mindless wretches of a ghoul army!
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner yells: No… we are a force even more terrifying…
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner yells: We are the chill in a coward’s spine…
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner yells: We are the instruments of an unyielding ire…
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner yells: WE ARE THE FORSAKEN!!

Good ol Times. Best Times when Sylvanas opened the wickerman festival.

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An honest analysis of Before the Storm reveals an attempt to describe a much more complex character even while making her a villain.

There are people who simp for Sylvanas and for whom she can do no wrong. And there are people who despise her and she can do no right. But there are also people who just consume the story as it is delivered, with all of its flaws and inconsistencies and form thier opinions and theories about one of the most controversial characters in the game from there, without getting emotional about it.

Then there are people like me who explore childhood trauma and a lifetime of abusive relationships with women through my undead’s chivalric worship of a zombie dominatrix.

There is only a moral threshold Sylvanas has to meet for the first two people… the simps and the haters.

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