Agreed. Its part of why I think they’re pulling the trigger on her “Being a Raid Boss” as early as 9.1.
That boot is going to drop on her soon. That the motive she turned herself into the Lich King for was merely a convenient Lie. I would assume if this corresponds with her abandonment by him as HIS expendable tool, its bound to have quite the effect on her. We’ll just see if Blizz can pull off that transition of goals. Because I hardly believe that they’re going to commit to the “Greek Classic” of “The steps you take to avoid your fate, are the ones that take you to it” with her.
It’s really hard to to respect Anti-sylvanas fans opinions on the grounds of “we are trying to tell you XYZ of why we don’t like this character”
When the second anyone pro-Sylvanas makes a comment like " this is why I like this character" those anti-sylvanas people descend on the commenter like “here’s xyz reasons why you are wrong.”
I wanted to say first, your post is really well-thought out and reasonable (I’m not intending this as an insult to others, but this post was a very logical, nuanced, and reasonable explanation over a very interesting topic). I appreciate having a discussion on these topics and while I disagree with you on certain aspects, I am of the mind that reasonable people can disagree, and I respect people discussing it reasonably.
In-game, Uther might be the line in the sand for when a character transitions from anti-hero to villain, but out-of-game is another context.
If, hypothetically, Stratholme had been wildly successful and somehow ended the Scourge threat in the Eastern Kingdom (or, heck, even Azeroth) for many in-game who had lost loved ones to the Scourge, Arthas would be a hero. For those who had loved ones die at Stratholme, he’d be a villain.
From an external point of view, the game could portray him either way, but I think it would be fair to say that there would be some debate on alternative choices and whether it was justified.
No matter what Sylvanas does, she will (basically) always be a villain for the Night Elves and Gilneans (among others). But again, hypothetically, if she somehow saves the Universe, she’s a hero to some unspeakable moth horror race on some planet we’ve never heard of who were facing their own Lich King.
From an external point of view, we can see the possible greater good, some idea of the number of people involved, and the fact that her eternity was being held hostage. With that knowledge, we can debate whether she’s really a hero, villain, or somewhere in between. That won’t change how a character in-game (or a roleplayer) will feel about Sylvanas, but it does allow us to understand context.
Illidan is a great example of a character who fits into this position. He made choices for more power, yes, but that motivation was primarily in service of defending his people and his world from the Burning Legion. To many Night Elves he was a villain, to others a hero, and to quite a few somewhere in between.
The Burning Crusade portrayed him as a villain and a lot of folks weren’t happy with that (or Kael’thas). Legion portrayed him in a more heroic light and a lot of folks weren’t happy with that either. Well written characters can be pristine unabashed heroes or they can be viewed in a far murkier light with debates over whether they were good or evil (and then there are characters that can be portrayed as purely evil, such as Voldemort).
Because if the Arbitor has as much empathy as they suggest in the arbitor cinematic she would have seen Sylvanas’s innate humanity.
That’s it.
If the arbitor has empathy, she would have had empathy for Sylvanas. It’s not debatable, unless the Arbitor has selective empathy in that case it’s a good thing she got shut down. I just systen wouldn’t have selective empathy.
I actually think you and Droite agree on this topic and you might be having a misunderstanding. Or I might be totally wrong.
As far as I understand, the Val’kyr grabbed Sylvanas and she never went to the Arbiter.
If she had then Droite is saying Sylvanas wouldn’t have ended up at the Maw. It’s very rare someone ends up there. I think you also believe Sylvanas shouldn’t have ended up in the Maw.
She got tossed in there though and the only way out (and not to return) was to make a deal with the WoW Devil.
But I may have misunderstood everyone and if so I apologize.
Did it ever occur to you that she’s being played? Potentially by the very same people who likely got her in touch with Heyla? Her Primes? Or did it never occur to you how absurdly one-sided, convenient, and “too good to be true” her deal with them was? Because with what we know about the Arbiter system so far, there is no way Sylvie (after ICC) should have ended up in the Maw … because its almost impossible to go to the Maw right out the gate. Unless someone circumvented the Arbiter system entirely to drag her there. And outside of Bwonsamdi, the ONLY people capable of doing something like that that we know of have all been Jailor minions.
I would not go so far as to say that Illidan, or the majority of WoW’s characters are well-written, so much as that Blizzard’s writing is just all over the place.
Sticking with the example of our favorite night elf-demon hybrid, I have always thought it was a weird decision to make him a villain in TBC coming off of Warcraft 3. He was really more of an anti-hero in that game; he was power-hungry, sure, but he wasn’t really malevolent or cruel.
Fast forward to Legion, and we get a depiction of Illidan that I think is a bit closer to his depiction in Warcraft 3. But the problem is that Blizzard never addresses all the evil stuff that he did on Outland, such as enslaving the Broken. (Whether or not he should have been depicted as such in the first place is not necessarily the issue here.) The issue is that all the rotten stuff Illidan did was canonical, and they just hand-wave it all away so that he can fight on our side now.
As a result, it feels less like Blizzard is showing another side of a nuanced character, and it feels more like they are back peddling so that they can -force- the story to go in a different direction then what was originally envisioned for that character. I would argue that Jaina, Sylvanas, Garrosh and other prominent characters have a similar problem.
I don’t think she had her shot with the Arbiter, I think her Primes saw to that. Those buggers have always been super suss. They are responsible (to some degree) for sending her to Hell. They took advantage of her mental state in EoN, convinced her what awaited her after her torment of undeath is eternity in worse torment, to get her to make a deal. More importantly, to give her a false motive to act upon on her own free will. Because “free will” is great, especially if you can make it convenient for your goals and objectives.
EDIT: And you know what convinced me of this? Vol’jin.
100% agree. Obviously in a long-lived game there are a number of writers involved and that contributes to some of these odd and conflicting portrayals, but in many cases it’s patently ridiculous and just added for convenience (and whatever new plot they want to add). The end result is a mess that folks question because character motivations are splattered all over the place akin to a Jackson Pollock piece. And as you mentioned, it’s not just Illidan in that regard - it’s pretty much every main character that has these fun dramatic personality shifts.
And yet you attacked me with baseless accusations when all I said was that sylvanas wasn’t a tactical genius. It does go both ways, so stop attacking others for their opinions
no I’ve had this arguement with Driote before. Driote believes that Sylvanas was deserving and judged to go into the Maw in Edge of Night by the Arbiter, ignoring that the Valk’yr put her there not the Arbiter. That’s Droite’s favorite fantasy fanon. It’s part of Driote insistence that Sylvanas was actually a terrible person before Edge of Night, with no evidence. Droite likes to re-write Edge of Night.
Sadly you may be giving them more benefit of the doubt than they deserve.
Who are you talking about? I’ve never suggested such a thing. I’ve repeatedly stated that despite thinking EoN Sylvanas is a horrific person, it be even up for debate for her to even end up with a short stint in Revendreth. Considering her mental state and situation at the time. But its nice to see that you’ve gone from supporting your stances with Sylvie headcannon (and absurdly skewed interpretations of events to always give her the massive benefit of the doubt) … to headcannon about other posters.
I DON’T think post ICC Sylvanas deserved the Maw. I don’t think she got to see the Arbiter at all, and she’s being played. I DO however think post BfA Sylvanas absolutely deserves the Maw. And the steps she herself chose to avoid her fate are the very ones that have condemned her to it. For now. Cannot wait to see her realize that.
It’s not really a lie if she actually did suffer in the maw for a while as a taste-test before being booted back out. At that point, it doesn’t seem like a Greek tragedy of her damning herself if she was already at rock bottom when she commits to the galactic heel turn.
Did she? Because even she admits that the Primes are toying with her the entire time? And of all the people she sees in the Maw, the one person she sees there is one guy she herself would have believed deserved such a fate? To convince her that the system that rightly put him in hell, is the same one that wrongly put her there. My … what a convenient series of events. As was her Prime’s deal with her (who were always watching). How … convenient.
Her suffering may have been real, but it makes it no less a farce she was fed. A little Kabuki Theatre. To convince her that she was destined for Hell and that the system that put her there is flawed.
I legit think it doesn’t matter whether she rightly or wrongfully suffered. The fact is that it happened, and there’d be no reason to believe it wouldn’t happen again. The evidence for this is that she ended up that way the first time around.
The first time around she crucified herself on Old God Blood while a bunch of shady Primes were within spitting distance. Who proved even before she went to the Maw that they were able to keep her soul in Limbo once she hit the floor. And show her visions for that matter. My god did they have a lot of sway over her there.
Had she picked ANYWHERE else to off herself, I wonder … would it have turned out the same? Granted such a question is pointless the moment she bound her soul to theirs.
Yeah, only cuz she’s dragging them into a war they don’t need to wage.
An Orc would sooner die staying true to their ideals, than live a life in shame and dishonor.
Ik the story tried to make it seem deep and eye-opening, but it’s ultimately just a thinly veiled attempt to present the premise of BfA as anything more than Sylvanas duping an idiotic Saurfang and Horde into a war that it didn’t need to wage. Which is especially even more poignant when she orders Teldrassil burned leading to an even greater loss of life due to a prolonging the war.
Considering her extensive track record of disregarding the lives of her allies, it’s a miracle anything she says in regards to life loss is taken with even remotely seriously.
Saurfang was just getting acquainted with reality for the first time in a long time.
Saurfang doesn’t need an undead elf to tell him what his races’ phrase means. He knows exactly what it means. He’s a senior Orc who’s been fighting for majority of his life, he’s seen firsthand the harsh realities of war. He knows the cost of failing to achieve victory, but he also know that there’s always a harsh price to pay to achieve it. He just doesn’t wanna hear it from an apathetic lady who only sees value in life when it’s beneficial to her.