The True Spirit of Winter Veil (Update: Possibly Patch 10.2)

[Mithonic-wyrmrest-accord]

My favorite holiday spirit is peach schnapps.

[Beagarn-wyrmrest-accord]

@Legonar-the-scryers

While you are correct in your assumption that Smokywood COULD have made everything on their own (especially if you consider believe that it is all a marketing scheme to sell things such as decorations and holiday spirts/spices), I think the biggest evidence they are not (at least entirely) lying about this comes from how much you trust the pet journal as being a reliable narrator in the WoW canon.

Well that’s the thing about the Pet journal isn’t it. While there is some lore to be found there, I need only point to the Baby Winston Pet from Overwatch to show that not all pets are technically lore abiding. His claims he is from the moon, but we don’t know which moon as Azeroth has two. It would not be outside the realm of possibility that whomever wrote the pet journal the Smokywood Goblins want to hold up the illusion.

@Legonar-the-scryers

Additionally, while I have no direct evidence that Greatfather Winter that is not a titan or titan keeper, if it is believed that Greatfather Winter did in fact create the Globe Yetis/Winter Helpers/etc., his general aesthetic (as seen throughout all of Winter Veil and its decorations) is very unique compared to any of the architecture or designs that we see in titan facility.

This leads me to believe the opposite. The Decorations are a byproduct of the current celebrations, not historic representations of what Greatfather actually did. They are fabricated and sold by goblins. Nothing about it is historically accurate to what Winter Veil actually means to the Dwarves or the Tauren. This is what leads me to suggest that the Helpers and the Yetti are byproducts of the Goblins meddling.

Though another possible take is that you are correct and the Yeti is actually a physical representation of the season and the real Greatfather winter and steals the toys and reindeer to foil the fake representation.

@Legonar-the-scryers

While the titans and their keepers are very distinct from each other, the general through-line is an emphasis on stone/metal and their utilization of non-flesh keepers (whether they be golems, dwarves, mogu, or others). If my theory is correct, the beings created by Greatfather Winter are magical beings made of flesh and Winter Veil Spirit; something that would be out of character for a non-corrupted titan or titan keeper as with the Forge of Wills, we can see that even as of WotLK the beings created by titan facilities are still made of stone or metal.

While you may be on the right track, nowhere in the lore does it suggest that Greatfather Winter is made of flesh. If it is true that the Giant Hodir is Greatfather Winter due to his association with the Frost element he appears to still be very much stone. Even though he is corrupted by the Old Gods which is why we have to defeat him he hadn’t been made “flesh” as the other titan creations (Humans/Dwarves/Orcs/Gnomes/Troggs/etc) had. Though I am still not sure if the Curse of flesh was instantaneous, or if it happened gradually over time.

@Legonar-the-scryers

If my theory is correct, the beings created by Greatfather Winter are magical beings made of flesh

Flesh as in the “Curse of Flesh”? I think there were very few flesh life on Azeroth, but a lot of them came from the Wild Gods or Loa. Those not changed via the CoF. So do we really want to go down the Rabbit hole that Greatfather Winter may very well be an Old God influenced Spirit?

@Legonar-the-scryers

That said, you bring up a valid point in terms of Draenor being magical. I forgot that Draenor was a particularly wild planet in terms of its nature and elements before being destroyed (as seen with the primals and botanni in Gorgrond), meaning that Grumpus may in fact just be the manifestation of the same fundamental force that is Winter Veil.

Dreanor is Titan Touched just as Azeroth is. If you delve into the Warlords Lore it suggests that one of the Titans tried to fight the Overgrowth of the Primalists ((Link to them in Dragonflight perhaps?)) so it wouldn’t consume the planet and choke it out. There are no Old Gods on Draenor and I think some cultists were trying to summon one on Outland back in BC but don’t quote me on that.

I suggested earlier that it is possible that Gumpus could be the Anthisies of Greatfather Winter similar to how Santa and Krampus are. Both came to being as a result of Titan influence.

[Legonar-the-scryers]

@Beagarn-wyrmrest-accord

Well that’s the thing about the Pet journal isn’t it. While there is some lore to be found there, I need only point to the Baby Winston Pet from Overwatch to show that not all pets are technically lore abiding. His claims he is from the moon, but we don’t know which moon as Azeroth has two. It would not be outside the realm of possibility that whomever wrote the pet journal the Smokywood Goblins want to hold up the illusion.

Good point, while I didn’t consider the validity of the crossover pets when taking the pet journal as canon, something of note in the pet abilities of some Winter Veil related pets is that many of them have the ability “Gift of Winter’s Veil”. The pets that have this are both of the Little Helpers, Jingles (a pet given as a Winter Veil gift), the Globe Yeti, and interestingly enough, the Grumpling. Additionally, the Rotten Helper instead has the ability “Greench’s Gift”.

With that in mind, it seems to support my theory that not only are the Little Helpers and Globe Yetis directly related to (if not outright made from) Winter Veil Spirit and that the Rotten Little Helpers no longer have this ability seemingly due to rejecting the force that created them, no longer allowing them to even use the ability.

Additionally, it is interesting that they seemingly confirmed that the Grumplings ARE in fact associated with Winter Veil, as the quest text in Draenor never explicitly links them to any Winter Veil celebrations in Draenor nor any named Winter Veil-adjacent holidays (Potentially backing up the idea that Winter Veil is less of a direct holiday as we understand it and moreso some kind of force.

@Beagarn-wyrmrest-accord

While you may be on the right track, nowhere in the lore does it suggest that Greatfather Winter is made of flesh. If it is true that the Giant Hodir is Greatfather Winter due to his association with the Frost element he appears to still be very much stone. Even though he is corrupted by the Old Gods which is why we have to defeat him he hadn’t been made “flesh” as the other titan creations (Humans/Dwarves/Orcs/Gnomes/Troggs/etc) had. Though I am still not sure if the Curse of flesh was instantaneous, or if it happened gradually over time.

Another good point, I made the mistake of placing things into two categories: flesh or stone/metal. Additionally, I wasn’t associating all flesh as being “Curse of Flesh” related, as I believe through Life/Nature magic Azeroth had animals and Wild Gods, along with Draenor having everything from Ogres to Saberon with no confirmed “Curse of Flesh” event having taken place on that planet.

I mostly said flesh out of a lack of any better word to use, as while they are blatantly magical (and very potentially related to the elements), all Winter Veil related beings outside of Greatfather Winter, Lumpy, and the Snowmen appear to be made of flesh (the Little Helpers who resemble gnomes, the Globe Yetis and the Greench, Grumpus and the Grumplings, or the Reindeer (whether they be the kind like Metzen the Reindeer or the ones pulling the flying sleigh).

While I don’t at all mean to imply Old God influence (this weird rabbit hole has proven to be deep enough without having to include Yogg or N’Zoth in here), I guess I meant more along the lines of how magical beings like the Kyrians, Night Fae, and Venthyr appeared to be “fleshy” and “living” creatures in the afterlife or how the Djaradin in the Dragon Isle appear “fleshy” in the same way despite seemingly being more closely related to elementals (them being described as half-giants, so make of that what you will).

@Beagarn-wyrmrest-accord

Dreanor is Titan Touched just as Azeroth is. If you delve into the Warlords Lore it suggests that one of the Titans tried to fight the Overgrowth of the Primalists ((Link to them in Dragonflight perhaps?)) so it wouldn’t consume the planet and choke it out. There are no Old Gods on Draenor and I think some cultists were trying to summon one on Outland back in BC but don’t quote me on that.

I suggested earlier that it is possible that Gumpus could be the Anthisies of Greatfather Winter similar to how Santa and Krampus are. Both came to being as a result of Titan influence.

My point about Draenor is that in pretty much all aspects is was a pretty primal and savage (both terms that were repeatedly used to describe Draenor in-game) planet with strong Elemental and Life energies. (Side note: the plant creatures, like the Botani, on Draenor were the Primals, the Primalists are the group in Dragonflight.) So with it being so wild, it would make sense that their manifestation of Winter Veil Spirit would be in the form of the much more brutal entity known as Grumpus and his Grumplings.

At this point I am more leaning towards Greatfather Winter, his creations, and Grumpus being more related to the elements than anything else, especially since we now know that “Elements” can get pretty abstract with Spirit and Decay both being described as them (along with Murmur from TBC and WoD who is called a Sound Elemental, despite that not being listed as an elemental type in the cosmology chart, possibly showing that somewhere in the finer details there is room for more abstract elements to be represented).

This is further backed by Greatfather Winter being depicted as a snowy being in the comic, the Snowman elementals, and contents of the Winter Veil book in-game on the Water/Snow side of the elemental spectrum. As for the Spirit section, it is something we know don’t know that much about yet as an element, however it lines up PERFECTLY with the Little Helpers and Greench turning green upon rejecting Winter Veil, as on the cosmological scale the opposite of Spirit is Decay, and the Rotten Litte Helpers are even called “Rotten”.

[Beagarn-wyrmrest-accord]

@Legonar-the-scryers

Good point, while I didn’t consider the validity of the crossover pets when taking the pet journal as canon, something of note in the pet abilities of some Winter Veil related pets is that many of them have the ability “Gift of Winter’s Veil”. The pets that have this are both of the Little Helpers, Jingles (a pet given as a Winter Veil gift), the Globe Yeti, and interestingly enough, the Grumpling. Additionally, the Rotten Helper instead has the ability “Greench’s Gift”.

What does it actually do though? Furthermore, can we argue any Pet abilities are canon? For the longest time they couldn’t do anything until pet battles ((and the pet journal itself)) became a thing. Until then, the helpers were just Gnomes dressed in Winter Veil clothes that hung out for the season and couldn’t be bothered outside of it. This in part bothered me as you’d think the opposite would be true as Winter Veil would be their busiest time. That is until you flip the scrip and realize they are being paid to be there during that time. There is nothing magical about it short of them being “summoned”. Like the Elves in the stores this time of year, they don’t always dress like that and only act cheery this time of year. Being forced into that outfit any other time puts them in a bad mood.

The rotten helpers may very well be Leaper Gnomes forced into the season. Technically making them rotting Helpers as you suggest.

@Legonar-the-scryers

Additionally, it is interesting that they seemingly confirmed that the Grumplings ARE in fact associated with Winter Veil, as the quest text in Draenor never explicitly links them to any Winter Veil celebrations in Draenor nor any named Winter Veil-adjacent holidays (Potentially backing up the idea that Winter Veil is less of a direct holiday as we understand it and moreso some kind of force.

They who? Remember that we basically invade AU Draenor in retaliation to the Iron Horde doing the same to Azeroth. That being said, quests are interesting as you suggest “as the quest text in Draenor never explicitly links them to any Winter Veil celebrations in Draenor nor any named Winter Veil-adjacent holidays”. This makes me think it was carried over from Azeroth to Draenor as opposed to being something from the culture.

Someone wants us to associate them with Azeroth’s Winter Veil more so than them actually being associated with it. Sounds like a marketing scheme to me…

@Legonar-the-scryers

Another good point, I made the mistake of placing things into two categories: flesh or stone/metal. Additionally, I wasn’t associating all flesh as being “Curse of Flesh” related, as I believe through Life/Nature magic Azeroth had animals and Wild Gods, along with Draenor having everything from Ogres to Saberon with no confirmed “Curse of Flesh” event having taken place on that planet.

You would be right. While it is theorized that true life cannot come from the titans, who themselves are likely constructs of the First Ones not unlike the Pantheon of Death in Shadowlands. They can create seemingly amalgamations or robots if you will to simulate life. It wasn’t until these constructs were “blessed” with the curse of flesh that they truly became alive. However not all the Races of Azeroth are Titan constructs. Many come from the Wild Gods and Loa. Even still some of the Wild Gods have Titan influence.

@Legonar-the-scryers

My point about Draenor is that in pretty much all aspects is was a pretty primal and savage (both terms that were repeatedly used to describe Draenor in-game) planet with strong Elemental and Life energies. (Side note: the plant creatures, like the Botani, on Draenor were the Primals, the Primalists are the group in Dragonflight.) So with it being so wild, it would make sense that their manifestation of Winter Veil Spirit would be in the form of the much more brutal entity known as Grumpus and his Grumplings.

Well it should be noted that while Azeroth has a World Soul, Draenor I don’t think does. It is also why the two planets are different. Azeroth absorbed all of the Spirit element thus throwing the Elementals into Chaos, whereas on Draenor they were to a certain extent in balance. “Primalist” is a class that goes back to the Warcraft RTS game. I do believe it was used in Warlords to represent some of the mobs but it has been a few years.

@Legonar-the-scryers

At this point I am more leaning towards Greatfather Winter, his creations, and Grumpus being more related to the elements than anything else, especially since we now know that “Elements” can get pretty abstract with Spirit and Decay both being described as them (along with Murmur from TBC and WoD who is called a Sound Elemental, despite that not being listed as an elemental type in the cosmology chart, possibly showing that somewhere in the finer details there is room for more abstract elements to be represented).

You may not be wrong. The Dragons from what we’ve been told evolved from the Elements to some extent are Elementals themselves. The Dragonflights changed with Titan influence becoming what they are today but that doesn’t change their origins. If the Giant Hodir is the actual Greatfather Winter nobody is saying he didn’t start out as a Frost/Ice Elemental of some kind and was “ordered” like the Dragonflights were. Grumpus may very well have some Wild God origins as he is named but maybe not really a sentient creature? Depending on your definition of Sentience.

[Legonar-the-scryers]

Ok, I feel like this is going into insane territory VERY quickly, but everything lines up concerningly well. I am going to preface this with the crazy claim first, then explain: PATCH 10.2 IS ABOUT WINTER VEIL.

[The State of the Theory]

Greatfather Winter is Azerothian elemental lord of Winter Veil Spirit (a strange hybrid element that falls between water, since ice is a subsection of water, and spirit. Greatfather Winter’s creations are the Little Helpers, the Globe Yetis, and various other holiday themed beings.

The Greench and the Rotten Little Helpers are green due to decay magic as a result of rejecting Winter Veil and Winter Veil Spirit, as Spirit as an element is the opposite of Decay.

Grumpus is the savage Draenor manifestation of the Winter Veil Spirit element.

Greatfather Winter utilizes the Smokywood Pastures company during the Feast of Winter Veil in order to maximize the spread of Winter Veil Spirit.

[10.2]

It is no surprise that the elements are a major focus of this expansion, with the Incarnates representing the four elements we are all used to (Earth, Wind, Fire, and Water). Additionally, there has been an emphasis on Decay as an element with the Gnoll plotline; specifically note that the main antagonist of the Gnoll dungeon escaped at the end, a weird note for what would normally be a boss with little ties to the main story.

An element with significantly LESS overt mention is Spirit, while its presence can be felt all over the Ohn’ahran Plains, it is more subtle when compared to the direct mentions that Decay gets in the Azure Span.

Blizzard released a roadmap for Dragonflight in 2023 and four things stood out to me:
Spring, Patch 10.0.7 brings “Holiday Updates”, nothing crazy.
Summer, Patch 10.1.5 has a section labeled “World Events”, this is what major holidays are labeled as in the achievements tab.
Fall, Patch 10.1.7 brins “Holiday Refresh”, thats a lot of holiday related content, even if World Events turns out to be something else.

Patch 10.2 (which based on the pattern, seems that Winter will be a safe bet): New Zone, New Raid, Additional New Features.

I realize this has all been pretty tin-foil hat so far but, Winter Veil lore has been being built on for years now, we have little to no relevant lore going on with an active threat related to Spirit (the one major element left), there is a Rot related villain along with Rot being related to the Greench and his minions, multiple direct Holiday updates next year, and a patch cycle that would line up PERFECTLY with a Winter Veil themed patch.

It’s all coming together.

[Mavara-uther (Mavara)]

All depends on how you do it tbh. Looking at a fireplace and my tree right now, with my wife in my arms and Bing Crosby playing. That’s what it is to me, not the gifts.