"The transformation from ally to servant can be subtle. I will not let it happen to me"

That’s a quote from Saren Arterius from Mass Effect. Do you think there was a time where Sylvanas thought she was an ally and over time went to full fledged servant status? I wonder if domination magic has similar effects to Indoctrination in Mass Effect.



Did she ever really have a choice?

EoN gave her the ultimatum to join the jailer or stay in the Maw being tortured for all eternity. The big question is, if she knew she was forced into an ultimatum why did she believe that the Jailer, at any point, was being fair?

ME indoctrination is a good example. No matter what choice shepard made, it benefitted the Reapers, if you didn’t unlock the secret third option, you never broke the cycle. Did Shepard actually ever have a fair choice? Not if you chose either destroy or control. You were only given the one option that gave the option to break the cycle through transhumanism, but that required giving up being purely organic. So ME is a really good example of “the Illusion of Choice.”

Maybe Sylvanas is seeking a way to break out of the cycle and saw an opportunity to use the Jailer as a means to an end.

But I don’t think WoW is as smart as Mass Effect, nor have they considered this. They just wanted to make Sylvanas a raid boss, it didn’t matter how they got from point A to point B.


Destiny Vs. Free Will. Hard to see a different story for Sylvanas right now.

The force of Destiny in Zovaal set her up, she thought she was acting on her own.

Zovaal then displayed that as false with his petty Domination act once he was whole.

I presume they go for her rising above and taking her fate into her own hands now.

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Good to see a fellow Mass Effect fan.

(Mass Effect Spoiler Warning)

There is a difference between Sylvanas’ situation and Saren’s. To take another Saren quote; “The more control Sovereign exerts, the less capable the subject becomes.” Saren learned this after experimenting with Indoctrination on Virmire, and tried to make himself useful to Sovereign in an attempt to stave off Indoctrination. As Sovereign took more and more control of Saren, Saren became less and less capable beyond being a blunt instrument. In fact, during his final confrontation with Shepard at the Citadel, the most he could to defy Sovereign was shoot himself.

Sylvanas hasn’t shown such degredation. While it could be argued that Sylvanas showed it by not cluing into the Jailer being bad despite several obvious parallels between him and the Lich King, during this time Sylvanas also showed great cleverness and tactical skill (her deal with Helya, the Battle for Lorderaen, her manipulation of the Desolate Council…). Sylvanas showed these skill and there was no sign of her struggling or dealing with an outside influence.

We see Domination magic in Shadowlands with Anduin and with Thrall, Jaina and Bolvar after the Sylvanas boss fight. The effects range from mind-control to outright possession. If we count examples of the Scourge’s control, then it ranges from puppeting them to their minds are intact but they can’t control their bodies. The final nail in the coffin of Sylvanas being controlled is the fact that the Jailer had to bargain and reason with her. If he truly controlled Sylvanas to the point that she had no free will, he wouldn’t need to do that.

While the writer’s tendency to play fast and loose with canon - especially where Sylvanas is concerned - makes it harder to identify, Sylvanas doesn’t show any sign of doing things without her own free will.


Indeed. The only being who could possibly be controlling her is the Darkness that filled in the Void in her Soul granting her Red Eyes and that Darkness is heavily implied to not be tied to the Void Lords or the Jailer…

Of course if Blizzard pulls off the reveal that the Darkness was influencing her then Zovaal was just lucky that his Goal and the Darkness’s Goal happened to align.

Is it possible that Sylvanas is actually working with the Dreadlords? and her and Denathrius had a arrangement outside of the Jailer? is that why she was surprised to hear that the Jailer had no interest in saving Denathrius because that put a wrench in her plans? I’m just spit balling here. But there’s something about this encrypted text that I find interesting.

Detheroc, if you fail us again I will personally flay you. When Mal’ganis springs his trap, you are responsible for recovering the asset.

Do. Not. Fail. Me.

Maybe she took matters into her own hands to save Denathrius. Let’s unpack this. Detheroc’s failure was in Legion. He was tasked with infiltrating’s the Rogue Order Hall and killing the Uncrowned. His second task was impersonating Shaw and lying to Anduin about the Horde to start a Faction War. Prior to burning Teldrassil Sylvanas’s main goal was to capture Stormwind, so it seems like she was part of the Dreadlords plans. We know this because of Varimathras.

Varimathras in Legion tried to tell us that Sylvanas was working with the Dreadlords. He also tried to warn us about the Jailer.

Varimathras: So, your Alliance still endures. Longer than I expected, though she has already planted the seeds of its downfall. She is patient, that one.
Varimathras: When your thrones run red with betrayal… when your holy places burn and the shattered mask hangs above your hearth… only then you will know. And it will be too late.
Varimathras: It matters not. You are blind to the true darkness closing in around you.

Varimathras: So, she found me at last. Sent her underlings to finish the job.
Varimathras: Tell me, when she seized your throne of hides and bones, was your allegiance forced? No… I’d wager you surrendered it willingly… or were convinced you did.

Varimathras: It matters not. You are blind to the darkness in your midst.

What I find to be a clue is when Sathrovarr says “I’ve… never… been on the losing… side.” it reminded me of Xal’atath’s comment about Varimathras. If you were a shadow priest wielding Xal’atath in the Varimathras fight you got special dialogue It was Detheroc’s failure that made Sylvanas take his failed task into her own hands and that’s why she burnt Teldrassil personally. There were only two failed Dreadlord plots in Legion, Detheroc and Kathra’natir. (although in Hindsight Kathra’natir was likely not a failed plot because he was exactly where he needed to be: Dalaran with the object he was trying to steal, the Nightborne Soulstone) Balnazzar, Lothraxxion and Tichondrius succeeded. (Kathra’natir is still locked in Dalaran as far as we know, but since Sylvanas was working with Aethas in BfA and Aethas was the only one who knew about Kathra’natir being locked in the Nightborne Soulstone, Kathra’natir’s fate is still up in the air, but it’s likely that Aethas, if he’s part of this plan, let him out and let him escape with the Soulstone. The other person could be Millhouse too, since Millhouse wanted the Soulstone because he wanted to save his father who is locked in a prison out in the Twisting Nether. < this knowledge was found in the Mage Order hall by reading books and scrolls left around the Library, this plot is likely tied to De Other Side because Millhouse borrowed some of Bwonsamdi’s juju recently and we don’t know why, it was something related to his plot in Legion.)

What a disappointment. He squandered his potential by backing the wrong side.

It was Varimathras who was the traitor mentioned in the Infiltration preface. Which means that Lothraxxion is still loyal to Denathrius and the other Dreadlords. But that also means that Xal’athath was working with the Dreadlords as well. She has another quote of interest after we defeat Kil’Jaeden and the Legion suggesting that she wanted Sargeras to stab the planet, Sargeras stabbed the planet to try and save us from the Jailer (phew this plot is complicated and has too many strings)

I can feel the pulse of your world quickening. Soon, all will be drenched in its life blood.

Xal’atath goes on to partner with Sylvanas in BfA, even putting her in contact with Azshara. Though it’s N’Zoth who claims to have set up this meeting, and used Zul the Prophet as a pawn to set this meeting up. (Zul has history with the jailer, because of Jin’do the Godbreaker and hints that Zul was personally responsible for the mess at Zul’Gurub, where Jin’do first tried to bring the Jailer into our world. Zul also hints in the Welcome to Zandalar cinematic that Sylvanas isn’t the one in control, the Jailer is. Zul was discarded for siding with the Jailer so the Jailer is not the winning team.

Sylvanas is just one cog in a big machine. N’zoth fortold her breaking the Helm and not even the jailer thought she would do that even with the Jailer in his head. We Ride Forth was merely the story that set up that the Jailer doesn’t fully trust Sylvanas, and was using Bolvar as a failsafe if Sylvanas was able to succeed in enslaving the Val’kyr.

The real question I guess is why all of these super villians are teaming up to ensure the Jailer wins, while simultaneously playing 4d chess against him? It’s clear that for some reason they all think this side (which I’m now calling N’Zoths “Dream Team”) is the “winning side” That could just be the motivation as to why Sylvanas would be there, she’s currently obsessed with victory. It’s spelled out in Shadows Rising that Sylvanas she has “utter contempt” for the idea of failure.

And… who says the following all the time.

Do. Not.Fail. Me.

I read this quote in Sylvanas’s voice because it’s so ingrained in my brain as a Forsaken player, It’s her. She’s the one threatening Detheroc because he failed and she had to clean up his mess.

She ordered the Dreadlords to retrieve Denathrius because her true partnership is with him, not the Jailer.


when did this ever happen? He said do this…and Sylvanas did that. He might have appeared to “ask” to trick her but she didn’t need bargaining or reasoning behind the “ask”…reverse psychology? She was taken aback when Zovaal seemed to betray his own ally, Denathrius, in her eyes but those who are the movers and shakers don’t tell their underlings what the full plan is. I think they call it compartmentalization.

I’m amazed how many WoW fans these days keep taking the words of manipulative and villainous characters (like Nathrezim and Void entities…) at face value and don’t question if they’re trying to deceive. Don’t you think that entities like the Nathrezim or Void entities are incapable of being arrogant and biased?

Sylvanas having an alliance with Denathrius would be interesting, but there’s no lore to indicate that she’s going behind the Jailer’s back to work with Denathrius (just fan theories). I thought it was Sylvanas asking after Denathrius because he’s a valuable ally of the Jailer and one of his brothers. Varimatharas was a spiteful demon, he was trying to taunt us, not warn us, in Legion. Xal’atath just called him a disappointment and said he backed the wrong side (for Xal’atath, Void is the right side).

Sathrovarr’s quote “I’m… never on… the losing… side…” could also be dismay that we beat him in Sunwell Plateau and a shout-out to Varimatharas’ unit quote in Warcraft 3. As for other Nathrezim;

  • Balnazaar failed to destroy Netherlight Temple and got killed off
  • Tichondrius failed to stop us reaching Gul’dan and was banished to the Nether after the boss fight
  • Kathra’natir is still imprisoned as a battery for Dalaran’s weapon defense system last I heard
  • The situation with Lothraxion is still up in the air

Remember neither Xal’atath nor the Dreadlords are all-knowing. You’re giving the constructive cosmic forces too little credit (Life Arcane and Light… especially Light), or you giving the destructive cosmic forces too much (Death, Fel and Void). They get things wrong, For example, when Xal’atath encourages a Priest PC to try and take Elune’s power from her temple.

Xal’atath: My mistake. It seems the upstart “goddess” still holds sway here. Oh well… (fatal interaction when attempting to absorb Elune’s power)

To me, Sargeras stabbing the planet was him going “if I can’t have you, no one can.” There is merit to your explanation for how Xal’atath was brought to Sylvanas and seeming to lure us to Najzatar. But how did N’Zoth foretell her breaking the helm? I disagree with the idea that all these villains are working together, especially since Sargeras formed the Legion to defeat the Void and that hasn’t been retconned.

Sylvanas having contempt for failure is hardly unique to her or even other villains, so I don’t think it’s worth mentioning.

It happened several times, @Mythas . For example, note how Sylvanas repeatedly tries to dissuade him from forcing Anduin to serve them. Note the interaction between Sylvanas and the Jailer in the opening (“He’s not ready.”)

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I’m not done reading your reply yet, but this is just want they wanted us to see. Balnazzar lead us to fight him in the Netherlight Temple. So having both a paladin and a priest I got to see both sides of this manipulation and it was twofold. This is just my personal speculation, but I think Balnazzar and Lothraxxion were working together to infiltrate the Paladin Order Hall. Lothraxxion is not on our side and the only one who actually saw through Lothraxxions ruse is Boros, but Boros was eventually convinced to trust Lothraxxion by Tyrosus.

Lothraxxion and Balnazzar staged their fight in the Netherlight Temple to secure Lothraxxion as a spy in the Army of Light. Lothraxxion used the paladins to help Balnazzar find the Netherlight Temple. The paladin Order Hall has you chase down a bunch of Legion books and one of the Night Elf priests who helps you translate the books because she’s the only one who knows the language of the demons, (which in hindsight is pretty sketch) defects from the priests to become a paladin.

No I think the opposite is true. I think the Light and the Titans are brainwashing us into thinking their PoV is the only one we should accept and we are throwing away valuable information just because we do not trust it’s source. I would rather be unbiased. Especially after Legion and BfA where all the evidence is piling up that the Void knows way more about the cosmos than any other cosmic force.


This was in the Tomb of Sargeras, specifically in the wing of The Sister’s of the Moon and The Desolate Host. The Host was a Soul Engine so Xal’atath thought that the powers of the Jailer and the Legion would be strong there but she under estimated the connection the night elven ghosts who linger there still have since the place was once one of the greatest temples of Elune on the planet before it was turned into Sargeras’s tomb.

The Sisters of the Moon were still a powerful foe even in death.

I’ve also played those campaigns with both a paladin and a priest. The idea of Balnazaar and Lothraxion pulling the wool over everyone else’s eyes is an unproven theory. Did Boros really “see through Lothraxion’s ruse” or did he understandably jump to conclusions after first seeing Lothraxion, then get proven wrong by Tyrosus?

The Night Elf priest you’re talking about - Delas Moonfang - was studying Eredun to track down Balnazzar, then became a paladin because she wanted to learn more about the Light. Both of these reasons are outright stated in dialogue and quest text. Nothing sketchy there.

I said you’re either giving Arcane, Light and Life too little credit or giving Fel, Void and Death too much. Your remark about the Titans and Naaru indicates the former, throwing information away because you don’t trust the source by giving Arcane, Light and Life too little credit.

Remember, Alleria and Locus-Walker studied both Light and Void and called them both equally blind. For example, most of Il’gynoth’s quote are either stating knowledge we’ve already learned or just telling us the Void’s plans in doublespeak, not giving insights into other parts the cosmos. Here’s two quotes from Locus-Walker from the story “A Thousand Years of War”.

Locus-Walker: “You have known the Shadow as nothing but horrors. The Shadow sees the Light in the same way. Neither viewpoint is true. Neither is wrong.”

Locus-Walker: “Now understand another truth. The Shadow is just as blind. It saw your fate intertwining with its own, and it rejoiced. But it, too, sees only a fragment of destiny. But that fragment is unlike anything you’ve known before.”

Also this;

Alleria: “Lies,” she whispered. “These are all lies.”
Locus-Walker: “Sear that into your heart,” the Locus-Walker said. “Know that, and never forget it.”

That’s Alleria’s and Locus-Walker’s response to the Void’s vision of the Light as a ravenous predator. And one last quote for thought (bold for emphasis);

Destiny. She saw what the Light could not. She saw what even the Shadow could not, because, yes, it was just as blind.

My point was that Xal’atath got something wrong (underestimating Elune’s power, as that happens after we vanquish the spirits of the Sisters of the Moon).

Stop being such a contrarian.

Life has nothing to do with my questioning of the Titans and the Naaru. Questioning the Patheon of Order is important because too much Order leads to oppression and we see that in the Titans wanting to control history and informarion. Aman’thul is the literal Demiurge of WoW. Your constant derailment of my posts is annoying, you don’t engage in good faith.

Here’s the meaning of Demiurge for you. Because you don’t Google.

a heavenly being, subordinate to the Supreme Being, that is considered to be the controller of the material world and antagonistic to all that is purely spiritual.

The Titans use actual large scale genocide in the form of Reorigination, trusting them is our doom. In Charge of the Aspects and in BFA it’s been said that Azeroth was a Titan facility where they created the Blood Plague and G’huun.

How can you be such a sheep? That’s a rhetorical question… I already know why.

Lothraxxion is a plant in the Army of the Light. You will see. The defector was Varimathras who chose The Legion.

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I understand what Locus Walker and Alleria were saying about the Void and the Light in A Thousand Years of War. The void’s lies are dangerous because they contain some dangerous truth and giving into those truths makes mortals go insane with revelation. But you are trying to use this as proof that the Light doesn’t have the capacity for wickdness because it does, it is the predator that stalks the Great Dark Beyond… that’s the dangerous truth and Alleria must believe it’s a lie not to fall into the Void’s madness.

There are safe lies and dangerous truths. Believing the Light is “good” or isn’t a predator is a safe lie. It kind of reminds me of the Matrix in a way. The Light is offering the blue pill of ignorance, the Void is offering you the red pill of revelation. It’s safer to stay in the Matrix. Once you get a glimpse outside of Plato’s cave you are crazy to other people who want to put thier faith in shadows, this is what Locus Walker was warning Alleria about. It’s also like Plato’s allegory of the Sun and it’s ability to illuminate truth through goodness. The Light isn’t inherently bad and so Thus Alleria must believe it’s still good. This is the foundation of the Light vs Void expansion you are so sure is coming after this one.

But that’s not the topic of this thread. This thread is about Sylvanas and why she joined the Jailer. I was merely pointing out that she could be tied to the dreadlord plot.

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I didn’t say Lothraxion wasn’t a mole. I said I doubt that he is , giving reasons as to why (apart from ones I gave elsewhere including his remorse and how I doubt he could’ve fooled a hardliner naaru who can read minds). I’m open to the possibility that I’m wrong and that he actually is Deny’s mole.

I know what the Demiurge is. While Aman’thul’s done some nasty stuff for the greater good, he doesn’t fit that criteria because he’s not antagonistic to all that is spiritual; he respects the naaru, doesn’t oppose the Wild Gods and helped empower the Dragon Aspects. Uldir was the facility where G’huun was, the Titans accidentally made G’huun, and Azeroth is a being and a planet, not the facility itself.

For someone who claims to be all about evidence and truth and accusing me of not Googling, you do a lot of cherry-picking. You only gave one version of the definition of Demiurge, the more common definition is; an artisan-like figure responsible for fashioning and maintaining the physical universe.

Please tell me you’re messing with me with that ridiculous wordplay lol. You’re saying that something the writers canonically called a lie is truth. You’re saying the Light is the Blue Pill and the Void is the Red Pill when - according to canon that hasn’t been retconned - both Light and Void are equally blind (plus both demonstrate limited prophecy and knowledge of the future in the story). If the Light were ignorant, the Void would be self-defeating.

This thread did get off topic after I expressed some of my reasons why I don’t think Sylvanas is working with the Jailer.

I linked the theological definition. Because I’m a Gnostic. Aman’thual is the Gnostic definition of the Demiurge.

At this point we are just argueing about our own theories and they are off topic to the discussion…I put my theories out there so maybe someone will read them and maybe agree.

I already know you disagree with anything I say. We don’t need to rehash our differences in yet another thread.

Possible? Yes. Likely? No. For all they’ve tried to give ‘new context’ to old events like the Wrath Gate, there is still no in game indication of long term collusion between Sylvanas and the Dreadlord’s directly after her time with Varimathras as her subordinate.

We also have no indication of who it was giving the Dreadlord’s their marching orders, but I doubt it was Sylvanas that penned them due to their references to ‘the master’ and other such lines that seem to indicate that the writer is a subordinate of Denathrius and likely themselves a Sreadlord rather than someone like Sylvanas who would see Denathrius as her partner - not her master.

The second part is true, that first part I don’t think so. There is no indication that Varimathras was trying to betray his fellow Dreadlord’s so much as he was gloating about knowing something the heroes did not know - which is likely what the Jailer had planned and how the Jailer was using Sylvanas.

While Aethas has obeyed the command of his Warchief over his duties as a Kirin Tor mage before now, I don’t think Aethas is enough of an outright villain that he’d be letting demons lose of his own or anyone else’s accord. He’s a patsy, not a nefarious plotter.

Absolutely false. Sargeras only motivation for stabbing Azeroth was to kill the Titan sleeping inside to keep it from being corrupted by the Void - he had absolutely no altruistic intentions in that last act before he was imprisoned.

If the book found in the tower of unseen guests is to be believed Sargeras has no knowledge of the existence of the Jailer at all or that Zovaal’s forces have been manipulating him to achieve their own goals this entire time.

None of that is true. Zul is not connected to the Jailer at all. During BFA he opposed Bwonsamdi, who at that time was an apparent pawn of Mueh’zala - one of the Jailer’s other major allies.

While Zul was responsible for Jindoand Zul’gurib regaining their power, this was during Cataclysm and had to do with Zul’dazar plans to steal the secret of resurrection from the Mogu so he could revive the first Troll King to rule in place of Rastakhan, not part of any plot to bring Zovaal to Azeroth. Zul was an adamant servant of the Old Gods who themselves see Death as the enemy of all.

There’s a real simple answer - they are not all working together.

No one aside from Helya, Mueh’zala, Devos, Denathrius, Sylvanas, and the Dreadlords were knowingly working towards Zovaal’s benefit. Everyone else was either actively working against him or did not even know he existed.

Again, I don’t think so. Just because there is one line of text that sounds like something she might say that does not mean she was responsible for writing that document. Taken as a whole the writer sounds more like another Nathrezim that’s giving out commands to his/her subordinate Nathrezim.

The Dreadlord’s wanted to rescue Denathrius because it’s to him they ultimately hold loyalty. There is no other reason than that.

If these forums only welcome conventional mainstream thought. Don’t then cry wolf when the narrative doesn’t and call it retcons.

I pride myself with being able, and willing to think outside the box. I’m not going to stop that just because other people can’t or won’t.

That’s the nature of theorycrafting it’s usally way off base until the times when it’s not.

I think I hurt your feelings, and that’s not my intent. I’m just pointing out several logical points, based on in game story and events, that undermine your particular line of ‘theorycrafting’.

It seems to me less like you are trying to think outside the box and more that you are trying to mash many different parallel plot-threads down into a single progressive narrative. I don’t know if that seems somehow superior to you, but to me it’s overly simplistic despite the convoluted associations and assertions you make to try and get it all to fit into your prescribed narrative.

And yes I am aware ‘canon’ in this franchise is a joke anymore, but describing existing canon as ‘conventional’ and ‘mainstream’ just makes you sound like a wanna-be elitist. There is no intrinsic value in trying to ‘think outside the box’ if you have to ignore little things like facts and logic to make everything work. Not that I’m asking you to stop, not at all. But you may want to better prepare yourself to receive criticism if you’re going to continue in such a haphazard and poorly conceived manner. No one is going to be impressed by your weak attempts to play the victim anymore than your efforts to portray yourself as the intellectual. This is just an MMO story forum after all - nothing said or done here matters.


But just like Saren, Zovaal, like Sovereign, was actually musing their puppet…to give the illusion of choice…she will do it willingly or she would be dominated to do it. “By that time, I will be lost and so will you.” ~ Anduin talking about being “compelled” to obey Zovaal.

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As Ner’zhul played Arthas like a violin, it seems that the Jailor played her from the beginning.