From what Edge of Night tells us, it seems like she never really cared about them but only saw them as a means to an end to avenge herself upon Arthas. Once that was done, she fully intended to end her existence and leave them to their fate.
‘What joy is there in this curse’ I think truly encapsulated Sylvanas’ mindset as an undead, she considered herself and all the other Forsaken as monsters. I don’t think she ever wanted to continue that existence beyond seeing Arthas dead, what would be the point?
Probably the only Forsaken she ever actually cared about was probably Nathanos, everyone else was only valued as an asset through which she’d eventually get her revenge.
It does seem some are in denial, or at least were at the end of BFA. Which I actually don’t hate. I always thought it was weird in BC when the Belves got over Kael’Thas betraying them pretty much instantaneously.
But I’m just sort of speechless that’s where the story was left off. After blowing up their city and making their founder betray them, Blizz decided the Forsaken narrative should just tread water for the foreseeable future. I would’ve thought at the very least they would’ve gotten a novella by now. But even the exploring EK book barely mentioned them.
The Forsaken really do feel like they’ve been left out to dry. Maldraxxus screams Forsaken, but have been promptly ignored. Heck, Maldraxxus has done a better job of portraying a strength and honor faction than the entire Horde. Remember when Ninnadar was flash freezing you in the House of Rituals Assault and some rando abomb just strolls up, gives a one liner, and takes the hit for you? What a legend.
With her father literally chilling in the Maw for all to see, it’s baffling that Lilian hasn’t gotten any spotlight. The House of Eyes is her wheelhouse. Why. Is. She. Not. Here!? If we’re killing/shelving Sylvanas at the end of Shadowlands the Forsaken do deserve some closure with her after she tossed them aside. Lilian can serve that medium.
If we’re doomed to have Calia why hasn’t SHE done anything? She’s just…sitting in Oribos. About as useful as Baine.
I’m with Benedikt. Blizz probably just forgot they existed. Or didn’t care. One of the two.
You and OP both are assuming that out of narrative knowledge is the same as in narrative knowledge. What do you think most Forsaken that even knew about that gathering and did not themselves attend heard went down?
Do you think they were told Sylvanas got mad and just started killing innocent Forsaken?
Or do you think they were told that it turned out to be a trap and several traitors had to be put down to keep them from joining with the treacherous Alliance?
Outside of the narrative we know what happened and why, but inside the narrative anything could have been said to cover up what really happened. Even Forsaken that heard the truth second hand might not believe it if they were especially loyal to Sylvanas. Those Forsaken that did know the truth might even deny it, for fear of reprisal.
There is no reason in game, within the narrative, for their to be a popular uprising against Sylvanas among the Forsaken. For all those seeds may have been sown before BFA they missed their opportunity for them to bear fruit by having Sylvanas abdicate her role of leadership voluntarily.
At this point if any Forsaken came through the portal to take custody of Sylvanas it would likely be her Loyalists, to either take her into hiding far away from whatever passes for ‘Justice’ at this point, or to actively try to re-install her as Warchief.
While I think that would make for an interesting twist to the story I don’t see it happening either.
Blizz loves nothing more than to throw out a ton of plot threads, and then snip all but the least interesting ones before they can go anywhere.
But if you recall there were some survivors of The Gathering. The members of the Desolate Council who’s family never turned up left early. They’d know it wasn’t a trap.
Also the humans buried the undead. You can find their graves in Arathi. Do ruthless ambushes typically end with the perpetrators giving their victims a respectful burial?
No cover up is ever mentioned in the game. But just for the sake of argument let’s say there was one. Sylvanas’s crimes go well past The Gathering. Derek Proudmoore is public knowledge. Sylvanas violates the single most important tenant to Forsaken society in broad daylight and only Voss seems distributed by this crime against inhumanity.
And it apparently doesn’t take that much to fracture trust. Banner Bae had some legendary side eye over her bad mouthing the Horde. You’d think news she was guilty of the highest crime in their society would’ve turned some heads.
But again the writers seem to forget the Forsaken exist half the time. Nothing was weirder than actually springing Derrick. My Forsaken Priest has enough authority to deploy the Dreadguard and order Admiral Tattersail around but his presence near secret Forsaken stuff is so suspicious that he’s attacked on sight? Really?
Actually Anduin’s the one who says Sylvanas will be able to paint them as traitors in BtS. He bemoans the fact that the event was essentially a clean sweep for her.
True. But my point was if you never read the book you’d never know it happened. A graveyard in Arathi is the only reference to it and I didn’t notice that, somebody else pointed it out to me.
When this is all said and done I want an autopsy on this mess. There are a lot of plot threads that went nowhere. And why spend so much time showing Nathanos disheartened by Sylvanas’s actions at The Gathering, Teldrassil and Lordaeron? That really went nowhere. Seems like a waste of the writers and animators time.
Noteably not really one of the ‘Forsaken’ as a political entity.
Cataclysm added Argent Apothecary Judkins who’s also rather interesting as a character.
I’m glad I’m not the only person who remembers him. Kinda makes The Gathering even weirder. Sylvanas going ape ish over one old guy wanting to live in his kids SW basement or whatever seems a much lesser deal then a government scientist leaving to join a paramilitary organization bordering your country .
And the way he tells the story it seems like he just resigned and left. A thing that wasn’t out of character for Sylvanas to allow until they decided she was in league with super Satan the whole time.
Okay but he wasn’t writing about political entities. He was writing about the state of being. I’ll quote it for you again, because you very clearly didn’t read it the first time.
Leonard Bartholamew is undead exactly in the same vein as every single forsaken is. He isn’t like this.
I think Blizzard has failed to really manage to fact that the structure of the setting has really encouraged caring a lot about particular groups your character is from. Even at a faction level it’s questionable. If Thrall wasn’t incredibly iconic and sacred for story and meta reasons, the entire Horde representation might have been Baine sitting off to the side outside of someone never part of the current Horde and unlikely to show up after the expansion.
I think they assumed the entire Alliance player base is a massive Anduin fan and the scraps given to Night Elves were enough. And that everyone adores Jaina, which is weird when you play a race she is responsible for an ethnic cleansing of. Forsaken meanwhile are barely getting crumbs.
It varies on individual levels. You get some undead who want nothing to do with their old lives, even going so far as to change their legal names to Blightcaller and the Black Bride. Whereas others keep their old names and even find spooky equivalents of their old careers, like Pontius going from breeding dogs to breeding darkhounds.
Hell some even seem to have forgotten what being human was like. In Warspear an Orc and Forsaken are swapping war stories and the Forsaken seems legitimately confused why a human was so upset when he cut his leg off. Getting bisected is more of an embarrassment than an agonizing death for them so I would imagine you’d forget how fragile other people are. Especially if you’re hanging out with Orcs, Tauren and of course Trolls who also don’t find limb loss that problematic.
But regardless of how they feel about their past they are fundamentally a different species now. And aspects to them, like what they find attractive, comforting and pleasant are changed. They hang out in crypts with giant vampire bats because to them that’s a cozy cottage with a big friendly dog in it. I think the humans and Forsaken can coexist but cohabitation would be wildly uncomfortable for one or the other.
They knew Sylv was going to slip the noose. That is why Nathanos is dead. Tyrande = Night Elves.
And we have another expansion with prominent Horde characters being killed off or stepping away. Because the players haven’t been vocal about that since Cata, right?
Sup yall, got out of forum-jail (for a post criticizing the mods, not anything at all about anything in my analysis of the story).
Also new xmog who this, went with “Shadow Raven Pope” motif.
Anywho:
The lack of Forsaken development 2 of likely 3 patches (9.0, 9.1) of Shadowlands is depressing and also bewildering.
Why is it bewildering?
We have met the Father of Necromancy of WoW, and no Forsaken around. This is particularly insane because the dynamics of Forsaken’s undeath (e.g. their alleged slow progression into decay/madness, their “improperly connected souls”, their reaction to the Light) is something that clearly none of the Maldraxxi suffer from so you’d think there’d be developments.
Benedictus Voss is in Helgarde Keep. Lilian’s father. Yet, where is Lilian?
Sylvanas is not the only character still around that was undead because of Arthas and turned into a banshee; while we never have formal confirmation, an example is Aelthalyste, who presumably is one of her “sister banshees” from Warcraft
Calia, like Baine, (and Taelia) did nothing all of 9.1 for the time being; even in the still-unseen cinematic that wasn’t tested on the PTR, what was able to be datamined did not feature Calia nor Baine nor Taelia
What’s insane also is that the Forsaken, as a race/concept, touch upon various interesting themes (rehashing/summarizing conversations we’ve had before Benedikt):
Abuse/Genocide Survivors (slaughtered then mind controlled by Arthas)
Post-war Trauma (some do still identify as Lordaeronians in Undeath)
Post-war Diaspora (a people who have lost their home with no way of returning to that state or place)
Abandonment, both in the political and personal sense (Sylvanas was the leader who led them after being freed one Halloween 20 years ago)
Foil to Alliance Humans (e.g. the Cult of Forgotten Shadows that lacks the development of the Church of Light)
Anti-hero themes
And yet none of these are grappled with except through a singular side eye of a flag bearer in the Sylvanas v Saurfang fight and the careful characterization by Roux.
But hey, at the end of the day, it’s another example of Blizzard not following through with Horde development and misusing the dynamics present.
My ideal Forsaken:
Girlboss Council (Lilian, Aelthalyste, Black Bride, Velonara, Delaryn, Natalie Seline and Calia, with Calia as the rep in Org, everyone else in Undercity)
Cult of Forgotten Shadows not only made prominent but also central to the game + Tidesages who want to keep using the Void whether or not they’re undead
Tattersail and Proudmoore made into a Davy Jones dynamic; Helya could’ve been given to the Forsaken and the Kvaldir alongside her
Bwonsamdi also working with the Forsaken now that Sylvanas is gone; we’ve seen Troll liches and undead troll used by him
Primus “drafting” Forsaken into a sixth House: The House of the Forsaken, tasked by him to watch over the Sepulcher (presumably on Azeroth at this point), so the Forsaken continue existing as pseudo Maldraxxi
Forsaken raison d’etre being a “second chance” for any soul that would be damned to the Maw; allowing for a constant influx of new people
The two points above allowing for the darker, brutal, Frankenstein horror elements to survive given the fact Grand Apothecary Faranell would be Margrave Marileth’s newest apprentice, maybe Aelthalyste is elevated to the status of a Lich apprentice to Margrave Sin’dane, and maybe Helcular decides to get some upgrades under Margrave Emeni and becomes an Abomination
I like most of that but if the Forsaken have any House of Construct ambassador it simply must be Calder Gray.
Who direly needs to be in the narrative more often. The guy has much better characterization than the rest of RAS but tragically hasn’t done much post Cata.
Seriously he was just such a treat. I was so thrilled when he turned up later in Hyjal. Guys quest in the Barrens is one of my favorites and it’s cool when smaller characters appear to have lives outside quest giving.
I’d actually do a new Desolate Council with Voss, either a newly undead Seline or Aelthalyste, Calder Gray, and either the Black Bride or Belmont. That’s RAS, the Cult, and the Deathstalkers/guard represented with Voss being sort of the commoners champion.
For the most part I’d put the undead elves in the Ghostlands. Quel’Thalas also desperately needs to be revisited and Tranquillen presumably still has Forsaken and Sin’Dorei civilians and military living there. Seems like people who could understand both those worlds would be the best choice for leadership as it progresses away from a battle front and more into a peaceful habitat again. Could also have some Zandalari around trying to broker some form of coexistence with the Amani.
Edit: Also I would keep Calia around and even let her assume the throne of Lordaeron. But this would be a largely ceremonial position and she’d mainly be used for humamitarian work and diplomacy. The Forsaken would be unwise to look a gift horse in the mouth here. Soft power is also extremely important and her soft face is an asset in that regard. Nobody’s going to be comfortable with Gray kissing babies and shaking hands.