lol, I got nothing else to say.
It’s almost like they designed an entire artifact progression system that granted both abilities and depth to many class abilities. And then pruned all that out, or put it in talent trees to compete against the popular choices in Legion.
No matter which way you cut it, many classes now have less than they did in Legion. Because let’s not kid ourselves here, the baseline classes in Legion were EPIC garbage and had almost no abilities or anything that made sense without the artifact powers.
Any more pruning and we will just be auto attacking to do dps.
I have a theory that they had a high level goal at some point of transitioning this into a console game, so they began pruning and now it is no longer a priority.
Basically what I got out of the answer to the class design question was “it’s frustrating but we think we’re doing the right thing, we didn’t prune as much in bfa”
I’d like to know what they are counting as pruned because we had an astronomical amount of passives taken away that we had in Legion. Are they only counting active abilities? Even then, lots of active ability talents replaced with weak versions of artifact abilities or legendary effects…
I really don’t think they grasp what players see as problems with class design.
Was going to post a thread I made in General here too but you beat me to it.
Not sure why they would be sad about this if they are not continuing with that philosophy, generally I was positive when I heard him confirm they were no longer moving in that direction.
I think they need to move a bit in the opposite direction, I feel strongly about that, but I do understand his point with there being a practical limit in terms of balance and also even keybinds to a lesser extent as well.
It’s sad because Holy has had a bareboned playstyle since WoD, removing many things along the way. The fact that they are now happy with how much has been removed is a shame.
Though I 100% agree that they need to move in the opposite direction, and I really really want them to.
The fact that Ion thought BFA was a step BACK from pruning tells me all I need to know. He’s not qualified to do his job and he should be reassigned elsewhere in the company. Period.
Put him on the failing HOTS team where he can do the least damage to the brand.
This theory is debunked by the fact that FFxiv is a console game, and the jobs have maaaaaaaany more abilities and buttons than almost any spec in WoW.
No, just because you can technically have more doesn’t mean you’ll have a cohesive experience that feels good to play.
It’s just a physical keybind limit which gets reduced down to almost nothing on a controller. You don’t even have modifier keys so you are reduced to thinking in terms of wheel-style menus or pausing gameplay to select what skills to cast.
The team should prune themselves from the company… I’m 100% sure at this point, especially after hearing the sad news about HOTS, that the dev team is a complete amateur group getting paid scraps. No innovation, just number and talent shuffling, while making azurite the center of what can make or break a class… it should be a flavorful thing that can add an extra layer to the class, not be the very foundation of it… ie.) Feral druids being good becuase of massive bites, which now get taken away making them dog crap at the one thing they were good at… granted it was a little over the top… but thats entirely the point…
Going into WOD some of the pruning made sense. Some classes just spammed cooldowns every 2 minutes and it created a very eh situation on top of what was otherwise a great system.
WOD balance wasn’t bad. Legion balance, wasn’t bad when the artifact became fully realized with the AP changes near 7.2. But BFA has removed the artifact, which had absorbed some of our mechanics, traits, and abilities, and given us nothing in return.
They are dodging the term “pruning” through technicality alone. Combat got slowed down just so they could make the lack of buttons seem more reasonable. So they could make it streamable, so method type guilds who run only mythic + could stream it and viewers could watch.
Nothing about BFA’s class design screams “for the player” with maybe the singular exception of fury, which due to its mechanics fires off faster than any other class in game and feels closer to the classic combat speed we are all used to from Wrath forward.
I missed being GCD locked on my paladin. It was fast paced and fun.
I think the whole spec fantasy thing has caused them more problems than they expected. before, many classes had several shared abilities and the spells, passives that set them apart, now it’s pretty much 36 different classes. I think shared abilities were a good thing, especially for Shamans, Rogues. I’d be fine going back to more shared abilities and expanding on the talent system instead of some new system that’s destined to be thrown away.
“There are effectively 36 distinct classes.”
Maybe there shouldn’t be. Why add all that extra work? What if we just had 12 distinct classes with shared utility and unique role rotations per spec instead? Save yourself that 66% in effort. Emphasizing spec over class only serves to create more disparity with the classes themselves instead of reinforcing a sense of cohesivene diversity.
During MoP, Warlocks had shared utility but spec specific role rotations (Destro Chaos Bolt, Demo Meta, Affliction Haunt, etc.) which made them one of the best designed classes of the xpac. I really expected this to become the template for all class going forward. Oh well…
I miss wrath/mop era balance where, there was a flavor to each spec but due to the overlaps people worried more about class viability than spec viability.
You haven’t played FFxiv on a controller then, it seems. But that’s okay, don’t let it get in the way of your erroneous meme-spouting.
Wow has never been a a real button heavy game though. if EQ2 can manage to keep adding new abilities on top of the 40-50+ buttons some classes can have, wow should be fine.
This idea that they “needed” to prune is a joke. They did it for ease of development and little else.
There’s various streamlining they’ve done that’s been fine. The problem is they haven’t made a complete baseline class since MoP.
WoD was pruned to kingdom come, many classes were straight garbage without various tier bonuses and/or trinkets throughout the entire expansion but the kits were still incredibly slim.
You move into Legion. Some baseline kits were reduced EVEN MORE!! I’m fairly certain not a single baseline class kit gained anything in Legion. However, they added multiple layers of the Aritfact and Legendary system on top of that. That added A LOT to pretty much every class in the game. Once we had all of our golden dragons. Once you had your good legendaries (never bring that acquisition system to this game ever again) a great many classes had deep kits, good ability selection, and fun interaction. I was playing all kinds of classes in Antorus and they were all fun.
BUT THE BASELINE DESIGN WAS STILL GARBAGE
That is the problem. They find these super pruned baselines to be acceptable, or so it seems. And they simply are not. Do most BfA classes have more baseline than they did in Legion? I think so. But when you compare them to an artifact and legendary character they have MUCH, MUCH less.