Literally them going into the sunwell was talking about this.
More when he is communicating with the elements and start to compare and contrast the feelings the elements give them to what the light did. He also came to the conclusion, in his own theory, that the elements are shards of the light because of this. A theory not held by many though. Some even call it blasphemy.
Like how Velen thinks Elune is a Naa’ru and Tyrande was like “you shut your goat a$$ up”.
“Meeting with A’dal”
I’ve highlighted the important parts.
Lady Liadrin says: Thank you for allowing me to speak, A’dal. I know many of your allies despise me and my knights for our treatment of M’uru.
Lady Liadrin says: When he was given to us by ‘Prince’ Kael’thas, we believed his power would help lead our people into a new age.
Lady Liadrin says: I’ve come to realize our path was a false one. We were betrayed by the man we called our prince. In his lust for power, he sent the felblood to attack us, and spirit M’uru away to the Sunwell.
A’dal says: Both our peoples suffered greatly at the hands of Kael’thas and his agents, Lady Liadrin. Your people were not the authors of their own fate, but they will die if they do not change.
A’dal says: M’uru accepted his role in this long ago, knowing full well what would happen to him. Will you accept your own?
Lady Liadrin says: I… I don’t understand. You – and M’uru – knew all along that this would occur?
A’dal says: It wasn’t I who foretold it, but Velen of the Draenei:
A’dal says: ‘Silvery moon, washed in blood,’
A’dal says: ‘Led astray into the night, armed with sword of broken Light.’
A’dal says: ‘Broken, then betrayed by one, standing there bestride the sun.’
A’dal says: ‘At darkest hour, redemption comes, in knightly lady sworn to blood.’
Velen with the sick lyrics.
i’m asking you for a specific quote, as tenebrae has given, because i don’t think any of what you’re saying about m’ure is substantiated by the lore.
yeah, i looked, and i noticed that the light is just described as a ‘warmth which floods the body.’ this is, of course, contrasted later with
From Water he gained clarity and patience: for the first time in so many years, his thoughts were unclouded. From Fire he gained passion, a renewed appreciation for life, and the desire to overcome any obstacle. From Earth he gained resolve, a steel will, and unshakable determination. From Wind he learned courage and persistence: how to dig deep within and press on in the face of adversity.
which sounds to me like we might as well also say the elements have some purchase on only being usable by good people, but that seems similarly silly to me.
What the heck caused the thread to take off so suddenly
I went to bed and woke up to sixty four new replies
Well he gave you something that fits what I said, so there ya go.l
Yes, positive emotions is kinda tied with warmth feelings.
Kinda, that was the whole aspect of shamans being the mirror to paladins in warcraft a long time ago. Difference was that the elements are more sentient than the light and can choose who to follow but willpower and high spirit is needed to communicate with the elements…kinda like a paladin. Hence why Nobundo was a good choice. The whole thing was Blizzard going “see, see, paladins and shamans are almost alike!”.
But the orcs literally lost the ability to use the elements because of their genocide of the Draenei. The elements saw this and just cut off connections to their terrible actions and the orcs, feeling this failing, turned to shadow (necrolytes), dark shamanism (forced enslavement of the elements) or just straight up turned to fel and became warlocks.
Reading Arthas, Nobundos story and Lord of Clans and you can see how much alike Shamanistic arts and Paladin wielding the light are such a mirror to one another.
no, it doesn’t. you’re saying much more than what’s in that citation, bud.
again, you’re really reaching here. rage is also a ‘warm’ feeling. so is shame. this line does not validate the scope of your assertions, and unless you find something that does, i’m just gonna discredit them because they’re sounding pretty dogmatic.
i mean i don’t disagree on this claim, but once again, it’s not central to the argument. the primalists were ‘evil’ shamans, but don’t represent all of shamanism. like again no one is saying the scarlet crusade or the lightbound represent all light-wielders lol
Not really. Both stated that the naa’ru did what he did because of his hopeful nature of helping the blood elves.
You’re right but the light literally is the opposing force of the void, which is pictured as cold feelings. Cold in despair, hopelessness etc. So saying the light is about rage and shame doesn’t fit the narrative of what blizzard is doing.
Not dogmatic, it literally is what blizzard intended.
The elements are their own seperate thing though. Not all elements follow the same aspect of each other. The Primalist literally followed the primal elements that were with the void lords, not the current primal element lords that the shamans made pacts with in Legion. Draenor elemental lords were vastly different from the ones the primalaist followed or infused themselves with.
It is not like the light in itself. Again, the fact is that “evil” paladins are vastly more rare than evil shamans. They are outleirs, not the norm and for a good reason.
People really wanting an evil light faction once again, even though how not the norm it is. A lot of people forget the fundamentals of the light and think Zealotry is the obvious outcome of light wielders. Which goes against everything the lore states.
so we’re just reducing the scope of the initial claims, then. lol got it.
i mean the curse of flesh gave rise to the feelings of heroism and courage in the earthen. and it was the working of the void. you assigning intentionality to blizz is literally the source of the dogma
so you are reaffirming that you’re missing the point.
like i don’t care about whether or not the arathi wind up being malevolent and light-affiliated. but the idea that such a nation is antithetical to the lore is just ignoring subtext from the earliest iteration of the game and a ton of developments since wciii
Because the outcome is the same. Why retread something that was already proven.
Curse of flesh gave them sentience, not the feeling of heroism and courage. Sentience also comes with vastly different feelings.
No, just reaffirming you don’t understand the lore of the light.
Oh they can be, but the fact is that with a nation so based on the Light, it would be highly unlikely. We already seen how the Arathi are when meeting new people. They are cautious, yes but they also welcomed us.
it wasn’t already proven. that’s begging the question, which is a pretty simple error to make.
you need to reread the lore. the earthen were already sentient.
lmao bruh. if you can’t even be bothered to cite something properly, don’t get snippy about ‘knowing the lore.’
No, they weren’t. The whole point of the Earthen is that the curse of flesh made them sentient. Literally a book in one of the newer dungeons in DF told us this. Two effects happened with the curse of flesh with the Earthen. They either became dwarves or the more resistant ones became sentient.
I am done with you.
i mean the earthen in dornogol seem pretty sentient without the curse.
They are affected by the curse of flesh. It gave them sentience, but it didn’t give them actual flesh.
…what? what are you talking about? i think you’re confused; the book we discover talking about the dornogal earthen doesn’t described them as being afflicted with the curse of flesh. and also, like, iron dwarves continue to exist and also have sentience. what do you even think that word means? but since we’re talking citations:
Yogg-Saron’s plan had unintended consequences; it gave rise to mortal qualities of necessity, such as courage, resolve, and heroism.
-taken from Chronicles, which the titans themselves wrote
like where are you getting this. an assumption?
Which are also known, by blizzard, to be wrong at times. That is why people are kinda PO about the Chronicles because blizzard went and said “that isn’t the real truth, just the POV of the titans and they can be wrong”.
We really going to do this again. Yes, it is talking about the dorngal earthen and yes ,Iron Dwarves are not sentient, they are all AI based creatures but highly advance ones. They all follow a programming and follow it to the letter, there is no free will to them.
The curse of flesh is what made the Dorngal Earthen stop doing their edicts, and learning to live outside the edicts, which split their people up. The curse of flesh literally gave them free will and total sentience outside their Titan programming.
Fellow watchers,
When you were assigned to observe the state of our Titan-forged subjects who, regretfully, fell under the influence of flesh, the keepers could not have anticipated the effort necessary to follow them as they spread throughout the world.
I shall do my best to ensure your perseverance is recognized. But for now, you are to continue your duties until a new directive is authorized.
It is apparent from your reports that the degree of transformation in Titan-forged subjects is significantly diverse. There is no group in which this variance is more easily observable than the earthen.
While some have succumbed entirely to the malady, such as the earthen who emerged from Uldaman and called themselves dwarves, others remain resistant–whether in full or in part.
One particularly notable variant can be found in the earthen contingent dispatched to investigate the fissure detected in Sector AR-938 (for further details, search records related to geological anomalies).
Thgat sector, is dorngal.
i don’t see a reason to discredit the titan’s perspective on this matter. if anything, they’d probably not want to give their adversary praise if they didn’t need to. why should the information about the curse of flesh be discredited in chronicle? what’s your compelling reason?
the citation you provide (kudos, finally) doesn’t support this claim. at best, it indicates that the dornogal earthen might have been affected. but this is really far afield of the fact that a. it still shows us (or might show us) how the void also instills ‘positive’ emotions and b. you’re still making really strong claims which you can’t really support. it seems obvious that titan-forged have sentience.