The Rumored Alliance Story Threads and You

Suppose we did want to tell a nuanced, balanced war story where both sides had legitimate grievances against the other. Are there any Horde characters that have a warlike bent without being totally evil?

The Alliance has Genn, Tyrande and Jaina, all of whom are willing to take action against the Horde and have good reasons for it.

Aggressive Horde characters usually lack that same legitimacy. Sylvanas fought because she wanted to sacrifice souls to mega-satan. Garrosh fought because… I don’t really know, he was ready to slaughter the Alliance in Northrend despite spending the previous 30 years on a different planet with no interaction with humans. He was just aggressive for no reason. There’s just not enough reason for the Horde to hate or fear the Alliance, since the Alliance almost never really does anything to them.

If you wanted to write a horde character with a nuanced, legitimate reason to want war with the Alliance, how would you write them?

I do like Aviala’s ideas but that focuses more on how to change the Alliance to make them aggressive without being outright villainous. How could you do the same for the Horde?

At this point, probably an expac or two down the line. Atm, I think a solid breather is needed since chances are if you try to add edge again too soon it will spark a “Oh great, here we go, yet again.” reaction since Blizzard has mistreated Horde as it has storywise.

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You know who I really miss as a Horde commander? Nazgrim. He embodied a lot of the best an orc AND a Horde soldier could be, as well as the worst. He could be absolutely driven to fight for his land and his people without being cartoonishly evil about it and, at the end, acknowledging to some degree that fighting the player to the death is a matter of loyalty and not at all personal.

Anyway. I liked Talanji as a potential source of legitimate anger toward the Alliance, just due to her imprisonment and the attack on Zandalar. I cite this because as a then-Alliance-player, it felt strange and offputting to me that there should be such a hard push to attack the island when they hadn’t even joined the Horde, before there was any attempt to negotiate, offer reparations, and try to convince Talanji not to entertain Sylvanas as an ally (and IIRC Talanji was already doubtful to a small degree).

Another source of justified anger would be from the survivors of Taurajo. It’s become almost a sort of meme and a source of ridicule in classic Horde/Alliance debates, but in all fairness it was a disaster for the Tauren and looked really bad for the Alliance, even if Hawthorne didn’t intend for civilians to die. It never sat right with me that Baine exiled the braves who chose to try pushing the Alliance back off their land, so you’ve got a good starting point for a deep-seated outrage that’s difficult to argue with. This also offers the opportunity for a new character or set of characters that could present a perspective defying the classic passivity of the Bloodhoof while not necessarily slipping into, again, cartoonish levels of aggression.

Maybe Magatha had a granddaughter who, while not accepting the worst excesses of violence her grandmother’s tribe embodied, still feels they had a point and believes Taurajo proves it.

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Talanji is definitely the Horde leader with the best reason to resent the Alliance. Dazar’alor was probably the only battle of the war where things weren’t 100% black and white. She accepted Horde help for a variety of homegrown issues, and as a result the Alliance showed up, sacked her home, and killed her dad. And for the Alliance’s part, they had good reasons to do so. Neither side was written as totally evil, unlike, y’know… the rest of the war.

Personally though I do not want to see the aftermath of Taurajo referenced in the story ever again because it is such a massive meme. And sacking a little hunter’s camp can’t really compare to sacking a glorious city of gold which once was the seat of a global empire.

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So are you suggesting the loss of civilian life there matters less because it wasn’t a major population center?

Honestly, in that case you could just paint it as morally gray by having it Talanji ends up becoming the ‘Troll reaction’ to centuries of Alliance encroachment of Horde territory by having Zandalar, at least storywise, begin flexing more and while not acting belligerent, looking at Alliance actions and drawing a definitive line in the sand in front of them.

Then in like, 2 or three expacs have the Alliance cross the line finally because the wrong people too power and we begin the storyline to finally put Jaina in charge so her story goes the entire full circle.

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I feel as if she’s come some distance from her outrage at Theramore and at the beginning of BfA. The wariness is there but I got the impression she had come back around to understanding the entire Horde isn’t rotten enough to warrant extermination.

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the Horde showed up on Azeroth like 35 years ago or something.

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and the humans had been attacking trolls for centuries before that.

Granted, favoritism would rule out the Amani since Amani is probably Zandali for loser at this point.

the humans (and the high elves who became blood elves who are now part of the Horde). in fact it was mostly the elves who “started” it and yes, it was the Amani specifically – not trolls who had anything to do with the Horde.

the trolls that the humans and elves beat up were the same trolls that bullied the Darkspear so badly that they almost got wiped out by murlocs.

Troll revanchism is always made exceedingly awkward by the inclusion of Blood Elves and (undead) humans in the Horde though

Anyway this is sort of the problem even with Horde aggression from the most legit sources, like the Zandalari–what will an aggressive Horde leader want? Night Elves want their forests back, Worgen want their country back, displaced northern humans want Lordaeron back, but what can the Horde demand other than beating up the Alliance until they say they’re sorry? They haven’t really lost anything to us directly.

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rexxar: time to wipe these kul tiran scum from our land, kul tiras

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That line gave me hives and poisoned my crops

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That line from Rexxar plus “Jaina’s gone too far” makes me wonder what scrapped alpha plotline he escaped from. I’m really curious - and apprehensive - as to what it was and why it was scrapped.

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where’s this nonsense rumored

If we were going to go for Characters that could push the faction conflict with actual nuance and have both valid reasons for players to support them and for players to oppose them, on both sides of the faction border, would be to take notes from Daelin Proudmoore, Kael’thas Sunstrider, Illidan Stormrage and Arthas Menethil.

They fought for their people, they bled for them, they strayed from the path of righteousness because they were flawed individuals and they were pushed into corners by the bigotry and politics of not only their enemies, but their allies.

Daelin searched the globe for his daughter … and in the process probably came across, and abandoned, his former Alliance allies in the process, since Daelin would likely have gone inland to find Dalaran, the last place he knew his beloved daughter would have been.

That meant he would have passed Gilneas, Lordaeron and what has become the Plaguelands, and helped nobody.

Then he went to Theramore after finding Kalimdor and upon finding Jaina, immediately turned her back into a helpless, naive little girl that couldn’t do anything right just so that he could save her and take her home. He ignored everything she said, everything she’d accomplished, because she was, and always would be, his little girl. His love for Jaina was no less deep than any other parent, but also dismissive and possessive, valuing her less than his sons, seeing her as inherently ‘foolish’, and ironically becoming a self-fulfilling prophet because his actions were used by war-mongers in both the Alliance and Horde later to stir up the conflict as well as weakening the positions of the pro-peace characters.

Kael’thas Sunstrider … there’s volumes that have been written on how badly our boy got done during the Burning Legion, especially being dominated by Kil’jaden and turned into a disposable meme-minion-fillain. Betrayed by his commanding officer and the one nation that should have been most willing to listen to his people, entrapped by his enemies in a scheme that saved his people in the short-term from the trap of his former allies, forced to serve a monster because there was no other way to save his people and condemned by his former comrades in the Alliance who then went out of their way to sabotage the only short-term cure for the Withering and condemn the entire Sin’dorei people into devolving into the Withered, Kael’thas, much like Illidan before him, was a mere pebble before the uncaring tide of destiny, doomed by the prejudices of those around him as much as his own choices.

Arthas in particular is a particularly tragic and brutal take on this, a person so utterly convinced of their moral righteousness and their right to rule that they made mistake after mistake to the point that they forsook the very reason for their descent into villainy for the sake of their personal quest for vengeance.

Illidan Stormrage, condemned from birth by the absurd expectations of his people, the accident of his birth granting him the ‘eyes of destiny’ that he would lose to pursue his true destiny, Tyrande’s refusal to simply come out and tell Illidan she did not love him in turn, Illidan’s over overweening arrogance and pride blinding him to his own flaws until it was far, far too late to turn back, the petty disputes between Illidan and Furion causing ‘Mal’ Furion to eventually cast everything his brother did as potential villainy and blinding him in turn to any and all explanations other than the most vile and depraved the Arch-Druid could conceive.

Genn Greymane’s blind stubbornness, his egotism and his pride has led him to abandon the Alliance before, imprison his people who refused to turn their back on the outside world and condemned many thousands of Lordaeron people to being consumed by the Scourge after Arthas’s return from Northrend.

I’ve written essays on Tyrande’s hypocrisy, her zealotry and her intolerance, but after everything that’s happened in the Battle for Azeroth, if she’s not liberally used to push the Alliance into, at best, a vigilance-at-all-costs stance against not just the Horde, but any former and potential threats, I will start flipping tables purely on principle.

The Ren’dorei and Light Forged, ironically, also make a great option for the Alliance to have even more war-hawkish characters without pushing the Alliance into the same buffoonish villainy the Horde’s been forced to slog through for five expansions now. The Ren’dorei, plagued by whispers from the Void and burning with the need to return home to Quel’thalas, regardless of the cost to the Sunwell and the rest of their people, pushing to force the Sin’dorei to break ranks with the Horde either through politics or subterfuge, while the Lightforged Draenei can bring Lightbinding to bear, literally changing the Horde’s mind for them and turning these mighty savages into docile and obedient servants and fodder-troops to support the Alliance.

Add in to the fact the High Elves and Human kingdoms reduced the Amani to savages in hide tents in their own homelands, and the other Human and Dwarven kingdoms have reduced the native Frost Trolls of Dun Morogh and the Jungle Troll Tribes of Stranglethorn were pushed out of their territories in Westfall, Duskwood and the northern reaches of Stranglethorn repeatedly throughout history by the expansionism of the Humans, and we’ve got plenty of reasons for the two Mega-Factions to remain at each other’s throats, even if there isn’t open warfare anymore.

And that’s just the Alliance. The Forsaken have been given a bum-rap for years now for something that wasn’t even their fault, and turned that enforced martyrdom into their strength, turning their unwilling monster-status into a badge of terror and fear to keep their former friends and families at bay and away from the Forsaken’s ‘second life’.

For every Orc like Thrall, Saurfang, Aggra and Gorgonna, there’s another just like Garrosh, Blackhand, Shoka and Gul’dan. Even now, even after the Battle for Azeroth and all the horrors we’ve witnesses, there will be those who remain stubbornly blind to the misery and the suffering their petty, spiteful need to inflict violence on others and call it ‘honor’ because to admit it is to be left with nothing, because that’s all the Shadow Council, Blackhand, Orgrimm and even Garrosh hammered into the successive generations of Orcs that followed them, both the countless waves of children twisted into adulthood by the Warlocks of the Original Horde and whose culture was completely annihilated to turn them into willing fodder-troops for the Legion, and those children born after the end of the Orc Wars who knew only the biased history their ashamed parents told them to try and give them something to feel honor and pride in.

The Darkspear were peaceful and their first encounter with Humans? “Trolls! KILL THEM!”, and it hasn’t ceased yet. Even if Zappy Boi does push the Darkspear away from the same conflict that condemned the Horde to ruin, there will be those within their ranks who will not let this grudge die. And let’s not forget Bwonsamdi’s need for souls for the other side. Peace generally does not fill the coffers of the afterlife as swiftly and richly as endless war does …

Tauren might be willing to go back to peace and lead the Horde back into spiritual lives, but they’ve got their own share of rogues and renegades who thrilled to the Orcish ‘ideal’ that Garrosh and those like him championed, to take their great strength and for once in their long history of being pushed to the brink of extinction time and time again, to take something from those who would hunt them and drive them from their lands.

There’s no end to who can start a fight and for what, but I think if Blizzard could just look back at their most successful characters and story-arcs and stop trying to JUMP THE DAMN SHARK every other patch, we could get back to the glory days of Vanilla, BC and Wrath where the story mattered more than big, hopelessly complicated set-pieces that made no sense and simply took a giant squat all over the narrative.

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The gentle, hair-raising murmurings of a timeline that never was, yet remains so intimately close you can imagine its terrible, uneven heartbeat close to your own.

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Aiming to add my thoughts for something that could be good and nuanced.

Could have the boiling conflicts also be shown the the Horde’s newest member, Zandalar, is not quite entirely on board with status quo (almost like literally everyone not human, forsaken and orc) and does things the Alliance would percieve as aggressive, but is ultimately still in their justified and legal right.

Could be something like Zandalar simply rebuilding and modernizing it’s Golden Fleet since they are still an island nation, while looking to be a more present force in the world they once dominated (albiet not doing so with military force, more political and economic, just they begin having a much larger presence abroad) and the Alliance getting pissy about it. Just have it the Alliance portray the Zandalari unfairly since each time they go “Stop talking to group X!” or “Stop rebuilding your military to protect your inerests!” they get told “No.” and Alliance paranoia does the rest.

Blizzard just needs to stop aiming for morally grey.

I mean, having a bunch or at war factions none of which are objectively right or wrong in an MMO is certainly possible gestures at the entirety of Vanilla ESO questing

Blizzard just sucks at it and unless Blizzard wants toet the actual writers do the writing (they won’t) than they need to just stick to the “everyone teams up to fight the bad” cause it’s the only story they have the ability to tell with even the lowest expectations.

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I still feel WoW would do much better if the writing focused on individual races issues with each other, rather than clumping them together in the factions and shrugging the moment the faction stories clash with the race ideals/themeology.

Shoehorning everything into just Alliance and Horde makes it extremely hard to be dynamic. You can’t shake things up; you can’t have actual drama because in the end, everybody in those respective factions are going to need to hold hands and sing nursery rhymes because anything else isn’t either going to have impact, or change anything. (See - belves in MoP thinking about leaving, Tauren in general, Night Elves right now being rightfully angry, Nightborne going to one faction when both helped, ect ect.)

I have neutral Sin’dorei who still don’t agree with working alongside orcs.
My Highborne questions why he’s even with Tyrande when she’s hostile towards Nightborne - which are more his kin than regular ol’ tree elf. (And hell, his own people.)
My Forsaken is actively working with the Alliance right now to try and track down Sylvannas so she can return to her “leave us alone” lifestyle that was advertised to her upon being raised.

I love the faction war, but frankly, it’s starting to make less and less sense as more races get pulled in and certain races won’t pull out.

If they even loosen gameplay restrictions for factions so people can play with each other, I want them to focus on internal struggles and civil wars. Have the groups as a whole sometimes still scuffle here and there, but I want to see the elves get pissed the Amani are now their allies. I want to see the Forsaken get mad at loyalists for ruining their chances at being left alone, I want to see people afraid of Night Elves because they’re … being Night Elves again, I want to see people outright not trust the Void Elves in the Alliance.

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