The Return of Black Arrow! rSV as a Hero Talent Tree

Black Arrow:
PVE Only and Useless in PVP if it has no dispel protection while being on a 30 second cooldown. I like it, but it has the same problem that survival had in mop. One dispel and its gone.

Survival struggled in MOP for this same reason. No Dispel protection on Dots made it basically useless in PVP.

Dispel protection means “If it gets dispelled, do a ton of damage on dispel and reduce the cooldown by 15 seconds from 30 to 15”, or something that means that people have to be careful dispelling it

Dark chains
Kind of cool but a 40% slow is really not that great now that every class has freedom\charge\instant movement. I think you could do something interesting here and say like “If lone wolf is active at 10 stacks then this roots the target for 2 seconds” or something.

Dark Hounds
As others have said, not a huge fan of clutter and pet spawning when playing MM. Not a huge fan of this one. Would of preferred some maybe improved traps, like maybe adding dark magic to traps and buffing its damage or effects.

Personally i dont think the gameplay of dark ranger and stacking with the BM dot would be good gameplay. BM doesnt really feel suited for dark ranger but that is just my opinion. Thought it would be more sentinel.

Seems really cool and all the hunters clamoring for dark ranger will be happy I think.

As a BM hunter it’s incredibly disappointing, more Barbed Shot resets. Call of the Wild already affects the CD of Barbed, Kill Command has a chance to reset Barbed. Just hard to be excited about same rotation with one new button that changes nothing. Not to mention Kill Shot feels so terrible to use with barely higher damage than Kill Command and Hunter’s Prey talent hasn’t been used by anyone since it’s iteration.


Tree feels extremely uninspired for BM. They’re doubling down on the boring rotation that has been around since Legion, and to some extent even longer than that. I was really hoping for something different.

Also I’m a bit confused on the Shadow damage part. Is there a stipulation that our pets will gain access to deal shadow damage now? As it stands, I can’t think of a single pet ability that deals shadow damage other than the one provided on this tree.

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Other than Dark Ranger tree it’s only Wailing Arrow that no one wants to waste a talent point for in either BM or MM, and the pet wording is probably referring to Dark Hounds counting as pet damage.

probably move thoughts here:

I’m glad Black Arrows is back, was an inconic SV ability back in the day when it was introduced. And while this new version isnt tied to explosive shot or traps like the original one, at least the nostalgia bait will be there.
Ironically Survival hunters wont have access to Dark Ranger hero talents.
Im really happy the Dark Ranger fantasy can finally have an identity within the game

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Should have some of the fun of Venthyr MM meme/fun-first builds, but… more Barbed Shot resets? Should at least be a darkhound summon or something instead.

Little naturally resets AiS on MM, but with CotW likely remaining meta for M+ and Haste/Crit being able to push resets so far already, the BS resets are just going to feel a wasteful redundancy.

it does summon a hound. well, has a chance to.,

Imagine if they made a choice node with LnL and Wailing Arrow. Reworking Wailing Arrow to an instant cast and replacing Aimed Shot. A choice between heavy dmg aimed shots or lower instant casts Wailing Arrows. This way we would have old survival back fully with the dark ranger black arrow reset. And ontop of making it instant, you might actually use arcane arrow procs.

With this, no more talk about rsurv vs msurv, what do you think?

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They really said thanks but no thanks to survival having black arrow, they were so close to letting survival have access to explosive shot and black arrow again lol.


I have to agree. Blizzards obsession with uncontrollable NPCs doing damage is odd.

I like hunter having more access to self-healing though.


Unlikely, This Black Arrow doesnt work like the old one, explosive shot, explosive trap, neither of them work as the ones that existed back then when survival was range. (and there are many other abilities that either work totally different as before, or that doesnt even exist anymore)
And the cherry on top of all this, Survival hunters wont have access to Dark Ranger hero talents.
I dont think the RSV vs MSV talks will stop.
But i think its time for those who still love RSV to realize that it wont come back, and that the only real thing they can do if they want the game play and feeling of RSV is play in Classic (WotLK and soon Cata, or SoD)


No. This is not RSV. It’s a tacked-on mechanic similar to what RSV had in other specs. You still have to play with a spec and fantasy that’s nothing like RSV (e.g. MM will still be revolving around Aimed Shot, something antithetical to RSV). The utilitarian focus of RSV isn’t there, nor is there any possibility of further exploration of that archetype.

This is only an “RSV replacement” to people who myopically think what people are asking for is MoP SV copy-pasted onto modern WoW, so it would be sufficient to just represent various parts of it in other specs. Instead what we want is a truly modern RSV tree with all the exploration and depth of any other spec.

Blizzard doubling down on bad ideas doesn’t mean we should just say “oh well what can you do” and play along. Even though it’s incredibly unlikely they’ll ever own up to melee Hunter being a flop (especially given how they’re doubling down on it in SoD despite disappointing results there too), it is and always was a terrible design direction that should always be attacked and ridiculed for being a terrible design direction. The controversy is a good thing. It should always be a nagging reminder that they screwed up.


As in that particular core reset should focus on that instead, rather than providing an excessive redundancy.

Or you could move on with your life


I mean, they could just have them ALL follow the orders given to one’s pet?

For my part, though, I actually kinda wish BM had more on-demand specialized beast tools. Think of BM’s PvP summons, for instance, but more numerous, and perhaps on shared charges with some synergies to further encourage rotating or comboing them.

  • Granted, that’d be specifically micro-AIed and perhaps directable via hitting the same keybind/action again during its duration, or else would still be capable of following the same orders as one’s pets.

On demand pets makes sense. But the whole zoo mentality isn’t my cup of tea. I’d rather boost the power of my one pet than have 6 out doing the same work. I want to deal with buggy pathing, crappy AI, and “no path available” as little as possible.


I think Dark Ranger and the other elven ranger spec should have been merged and given a choice between undead and living, honestly

However, since that ship has now sailed, taking inspo from torchlight’s Outlander isn’t the worst idea to make it unique (I’m sure a bunch of people are going to be disappointed that Sentinel gets to keep the Elven Ranger stuff)

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Have you played any games with a decently but distinctly handled “summoner” type of class, by any chance?

In the best models I can think of, the temporary unit ends up being a sort of hyperversatile multi-stage action (e.g., allowing for branching paths). A decent part of that decision-making happening through who or where you sic that unit onto via the comparatively more finnicky shared pet controls, but such is still largely secondary to through what branched decisions or timed unlocked/further actions you use that combination of available output and separate health, effect, and/or threat pools.

If BM could actually pull that off, I’d be hooked. Probably wouldn’t be for everyone, likely seeming a bit too min-maxy or overcomplicated, but I’d love to see it as an option.

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