sure you can. when the average chance at a reliable upgrade is low, most groups will opt to skip for starting mythic early, then popping back and doing the last heroic boss a bit later.
On average you’re not gonna have many 2h specs, and doing the boss just for them when the first mythic bosses are easier doesn’t make a ton of sense.
The question guilds need to answer is Is it more important for us to kill heroic jailer for ~4-5 players who want a STR 2h, or get the raid mythic 2 vault and unlock a 278 2H from skolex?
Jailer also has necks/trinkets that are on all the loot tables.
Which means that’s 75% of what drops.
A weapon? Good luck.
Forced PL strikes again.
And then get the single kill, one player gets the wep out of sheer luck, and now the others are bitter since the guild doesn’t want to go back to jailer.
I don’t know why people think the penultimate boss of a raid should be a total cakewalk on the 2nd hardest difficulty.
Also, rygelon is a really quick fight, wipes don’t happen 9 minutes in, they happen 15 seconds in, or at worst 4:30 in. At that point you just rez up and go again.
what is it, 6:30 hard enrage?
That’s actually what makes the fight so great. The enrage is pretty short, so it really is a dps rush to the end. The mechanics are pass fail, so it’s actually really unlikely you are going to wipe to the enrage because if you don’t have the damage to beat it, you probably aren’t doing spectacularly at the mechanics either.
I’m looking forward to seeing the mythic version, hopefully in the next week or 2
The difference with Ghuun is you could choose who carried the orbs. It wasn’t uncommon to see PuG groups asking for orb carriers specifically. So only orb carriers needed to know the mechanic and be consistent with it.
With Rhygelon, Dark Eclipse happens frequently enough that every player is going to get it multiple times. So if one person ANY person can’t do it consistently, the entire group is road blocked.
This is currently the boss my casual AOTC guild is stuck on and it’s mainly due to a couple players who aren’t able to do Dark Eclipse consistently. Love ‘em to death but I’m well aware that we’re just waiting on those players to figure out a good way to deal with it.
I’m not making a judgement call on whether or not that’s a good or bad thing, but since our guild has a pretty significant gap between our most skilled players and our least skilled players, it’s easy for me to see the difference between raid mechanics where we can choose who gets them vs. ones we can’t. Fights with tricky insta-wipe mechanics that require every player to be familiar with it are the ones that hold us up the most.
No judgement here, but how have you guys approached these players? I think if you’re just waiting around for those players to figure it out, you’re just going to be frustrated. Personally I always look for ways I can help struggling players in my raid. Either by making extra callouts or making really useful weakauras for players to see.
I generally make it a rule not to discuss these sorts of things in depth outside of the people involved but suffice to say that yes, we have a mentoring program for these players and we are trying to actively come up with solutions with them. This isn’t the first time we’ve had progression held up by a couple players struggling with a particular mechanic so we’re pretty familiar with the process by now.
And I say struggling but we haven’t been struggling THAT long. This coming Saturday will be our 4th night on him and our first night on him was only half Rhygelon.
It’s just something we deal with as a result of our policy for inviting people to Heroic. Our threshold for who we allow on the Heroic team is lenient by design. It basically just amounts to “can you do more damage to the boss than you add to his health bar.” If I’m honest, I’m actually routinely impressed by what the group is able to accomplish given how many of them never thought they’d see themselves in any raid setting let alone a Heroic one.
Overtuned means the target slice of players, usually the bulk of players participating, are making consistent progress at a reasonable pace
It has nothing to do with whatever nonsense you are describing, the players haven’t change - the tuning changed
The goal of the game is a hamster wheel dopamine delivery machine for entertainment, if certain raid bosses are frustrating most players it is badly tuned
You are grossly out of touch
Not any good ones.
People don’t seem to realize you can stack on the quasar when you have the debuff.
My expectation for the difficulty levels for ‘one-shot’ mechanics is that LFR should be 25% health, Normal 50%, Heroic takes off 75% of a players health, and only Mythic does a full 100% kill shot.
75% would still be significant, anyone with a health deficit could be killed which may mean a wipe anyway.
Another way to look at it would be as a percentage of the raid that must make a mistake before it becomes a full wipe. LFR should be quite easy and allow for 2/5 of the raid to fail, Normal 1/5, Heroic 1/10, and Mythic 1/20.
So for LFR 10 people (out of 25) must do something bad to wipe, while Normal is 1-6 depending on flex size, Heroic 1-3, and Mythic should potentially wipe with a single failure.
This isn’t my theory as to what Blizzard should do, it’s my theory as to how Blizzard does.
Heroic Denny and Sylv were both possible even after having one person fail.
I think the nature of the issue is boss to boss and raid to raid inconsistency with how good a heroic raid team has to be to get AOTC. Most bosses on H if you have say 4 actually good players, 10 okish players, 2 kind of bad players, and 4 people who you can just never seem to get a mechanic right you’ll be fine with killing that boss. Lately the last boss and perhaps 1 more you need people to actually play ok or something being done wrong will kill everyone. This raid, as best I can tell, just has more bosses on H that a couple of people not doing mechanics properly can cause nightmares. People not pulling their weight on orb deflection and putting the orb slows in the wrong spot on haldonrus is a bad time. People doing stars and circles wrong on Anduin is a wipe. People doing the green/purple stuff wrong on Lords and not voting in imposter phase is a bad time. People accidently taking orbs, killing orbs to early, not taking the orb when they have debuff is a wipe on Ry. Jailer, let’s not talk about everything that can go wrong there. All of these bosses except hal you need to kill for the skip too. Compare that to SoD where I guess someone positioning a guardian circle wrong could cause a wipe, fatescribe could be a nightmare, and I guess painsmith traps being positioned wrong could cause wipes before you out geared it. None of these you had to kill once you used the skip. With painsmith and guardian there was a lot of room for your worst players not having to deal with it and just killing it on pulls where they didn’t get it. You also could kind of deal with only 1 person being wrong at once with everyone else sort of playing around it. Fate a lot of AOTC guilds just stopped doing once they had the KT skip.
TLDR- I think this raid on H has more bosses where a small number of raiders doing things incorrectly means you wipe, the bosses that do this you mostly can’t skip, and there isn’t really room to make up for it being done wrong.
The players have changed what are you on about? If you think the vast majority of the player base has not changed in the last 18 years in both the actual player and skill level then I dunno what to tell you.
This is mostly true. Left of bell curve players today play at a skill level the best of the best came nowhere near in Vanilla. It’s actually funny and sad to watch some of the old raid videos from that era. You had “top” people running around like chickens with their heads cut off, backpeddling, casting 1 thing every few seconds and seemingly haphazardly, and just generally playing at a facepalm level…and it still works.
Today you go into normal Anduin and eff up a blasphemy and stand a decent chance of both players dying. Do it on heroic and you just wiped your raid team or took out a chunk of them. Screw up a divine star on heroic and your raid is wiped.
But it’s to be expected. I was doing more complex schoolwork in middle school than my parents did in High School and we aren’t even going to think about what my boomer grandparents had for “schooling”. I, as an older millennial, have worked way harder and in FAR more complex jobs than my boomer grandparents ever had to. Success for a boomer = being a warm body. Not only do I need to keep on the top of my game, but I got to compete against literally people all over the globe who can do my job for pennies on the dollar. Competition for a boomer is will Frank 3 doors down be more of a kiss up and play golf and lose to the boss convincingly enough to be believable that he was trying better than me.
Like I said earlier, I think the biggest problems with the raid bosses is the sheer difficulty ramp up. Either normal Ryg was way undertuned or heroic is overtuned. He doesn’t feel like a 1 step up difficulty ramp up…he literally goes from being barely more than a tank and spank to being a 1 mistake = wipe boss. By contrast, Anduin normal vs heroic felt more fair (even if both I’d argue were overtuned for a mid tier boss).
It’s not even a fun fight either where you can think about and refine your strategy. It’s literally all can your derpy DPS and healers manage to perfectly handle their debuff each and every time and can the healers keep up with the fairly high consistent damage being dished out. Someone mess up? Res and buff/eat up and try again. Let’s once again harp on the importance of doing the mechanics because telling you all the previous 90ish wipes hasn’t seem to clicked in your heads yet.
There are definitely some walking talking trashcans being carried in Raids my guy.
See I fundamentally disagree it’s overturned, perhaps normal is undertuned. But if you simply break the fight down it’s kill adds, debuff step into add zone, kill add, get into circle rinse repeat. Dude before even carried on about the jailer and again it’s really a basic fight. You can tell where the player gap and mentality difference is between players on the last 3 fight of the raid. It’s all mechanics the dps/hps checks on them are honestly not that high it’s a mechanics check where as the previous fights do mostly allow you ignore mechanics if you have a high enough dps/hps output.