The next leader of the Forsaken should be... Varimathras

In the Sylvanas novel, when Varimathras attempts to kill her following the Wrathgate, he outright says, “I will be the one to herald the masters’ victory, not you!”

So they tried to explain it away as Varimathras acting out of jealousy. However it fell flat to me because when Sylvanas meets Mal’Ganis, she doesn’t bring up Varimathras at all when logically she would at learning that the Nathrezim were the Jailer’s agents and ask about Varimathras’ actions there.

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Honestly it is kinda funny how he tried to kill Sylvanas as the Wrathgate happened… only for Sylvanas to join up with his true boss (Zovaal) a few months later.

Mal’ganis and his relationship with Arthas is also like that.

Mal’ganis was angry that Ner’zhul used him to corrupt Arthas so he tries to kill Arthas in Wrath. But corrupting Arthas was also part of the Jailers plan (just not Arthas usurping Ner’zhul as the Lich King), so Mal’ganis should be angry at his boss. But at the same time Mal’ganis is like “tricking Arthas was my best con ever!”

So like… wtf is he going on about. Is he okay with his ‘death’ at the end of the Human campaign in WC3 or not? I don’t think there is anything that retcons his motive to destroy Arthas in Wrath, so it is still “I wanna kill him for killing me”.

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There’s nothing retconning it, but he also never makes any kind of move against Arthas. Beyond tricking the Scarlet Onslaught into existing to be slaughtered, he really doesn’t do anything, except tell rando adventurers how mad he is at Arthas, and how he is absolutely totally going to actually go and get him. Just you watch!!

… So we do not know he secretly was never mad!! Because it was part of the master’s master plan and he was in on it from the beginning!!! Fractals!!!

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What makes it murky is we don’t know what was and wasn’t Zovaal’s plan. We know that the Lich King was meant to herald his coming, which to that end Zovaal served as a malevolent presence at the edge of the Lich King’s mind to influence this outcome. However while all three Lich King’s were considered failures for rejecting his will, it’s uncertain if they just rejected him completely or he was able to have influence that helped his own plans.

Now when it comes to Mal’Ganis, himself…

Corrupting Arthas was Ner’zhul’s plan and he convinced the Legion that this would be a key role in weakening Azeroth. Thus Mal’Ganis served as the public face of the Scourge, until Arthas succumbed and picked up Frostmourne. Mal’Ganis expected Arthas to kneel up until he straight up killed him. The other Nathrezim were angered by Mal’Ganis’ death, but Ner’zhul convinced them that it only happened because he hadn’t had gotten complete control over Arthas.

By the time Mal’Ganis had acted against Arthas in Wrath, Arthas had rejected Zovaal’s will and was doing his own thing. In that regard Mal’Ganis wasn’t getting in the way of Zovaal’s plan, but moving against an enemy.

As for the gloating about tricking Arthas… it could just be him gloating that he got the last laugh and twisting the truth to someone who would want to believe that Arthas was a victim of a con.

To me, Ner’zhul corrupting someone like Arthas, a champion of the light, much like Anduin will be years later was key to the Jailers plan. However Arthas usurping Ner’zhul was not part of it. As stated by Ner’zhul himself in Sanctum of Domination. Which I honestly hate because it was Ner’zhuls plan to destroy Lordaeron from within, but he would also use Arthas, someone he would have direct control over via Frostmourne to undermine the Legion once his ‘task’ was done (aka summon Archimonde).

It basically robs Ner’zhul of his deception and places it on the Jailer because reasons. Although there is a way where both scenarios can be “true”. The maw intro experience makes it clear that Zovaal is looking for someone he can use to sneak into Bastion. He chooses Anduin because the young King was able to wield the light for a long time in the maw. It could be that Zovaal was not looking for any particular Paladin or light user to be his heralds champion. Therefore the herald, or his jailers would choose who to go after. Ner’zhul settled on Arthas. Due to him being an easier target to manipulate. So choosing Arthas is still Ner’zhuls choice while Zovaal just wanted someone who ticked all the boxes.

Obviously we know it all goes wrong. Ner’zhul rebelled against the Legion and Zovaal. Arthas usurped the Orc Shaman, something that was not ‘part of the plan’ and did his own thing as well.

That’s the point I was making about there being nothing that outright states that the reason why he forged the Scarlet Onslaught had changed. In Wrath he wanted to get revenge on Arthas. The only thing we had that could link to that was Mal’ganis’ death in WC3. Where he was killed to undermine the Legion but Ner’zhul sold it as being a ‘necessary action’. Mainly to help further corrupt Arthas. There is some truth to that though. And with Archimonde tapping his foot, the other Dreadlords had no other choice but to let it slide.

It is just a convoluted mess all because some arrogant writers wanted to say “no, it was we who finished off WC3’s story. Not those old timers”.

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That is very much true.

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I view Varimathras in the same vein as I view Lady Prestor, they would have been/were much more interesting as more nuanced and morally grey advisors than outright villains. Having the bulk of Vanilla Stormwind’s issues be due to Nefarian engaging in a proxy war with Onyxia, who views the kingdom as her ‘hoard’ and wants to preserve it due to that, makes things much more interesting than two conniving Black Dragons working together for some reason. She was killed off only for Wrathion to take the role she’d have likely had, years later.

Varimathras as a demon bound by oath to serve Sylvanas, and wanting the Forsaken to succeed due to a mix of that oath and simple demonic ego is much more interesting than him just turning on them. It would even have worked in Cataclysm, with him pushing her to be more aggressive in Lordaeron.

Replaying Classic and all the faction leadership was just much more interesting overall. The root of a lot of story issues that happened in the latter 2010s and early 2020s started with Cata and the simplifying of that, Varimathras was just the canary in the coal mine.

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There is nothing to suggest he intentionally sabotaged it. He was hoping to kill the Lich King with the plague and wipe out a good chunk of Alliance/Horde forces in one fell swoop. And them presumably while both were weakened summon the Legion and finish off those that remained.

Personally I think he got greedy and overconfident in his schemes.

That has already been retconned. Sargeras CHOOSE on his own volition to make the Legion/destroy creation.

Killing off and retiring an entire faction’s leadership was certainly an interesting choice.

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Plot Twist: Calia is Varimathras.

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Calia: “I AM KAZAAM!

Dunks over top of the Desolate Council, shattering the glass around the rim. (In slow motion)

I definitely consider Varimathras to be the single most wasted character in the lore. He went in such a generic and obvious direction for a dreadlord when he could have been the most interesting Horde leader. Imagine having him around during Legion.

What’s not to like about someone with two betrayals on his belt?

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Make it three betrayals and we have a deal :dracthyr_nod:

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Those are rookie numbers for a Dreadlord, he’s gotta pump those numbers up

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Right?? I’m not even a dreadlord, and I’ve taken part in two insurrections against the Horde warchief. I’ve got that exact number of betrayals!! And I got wide praise for my betrayals, and toys and loot!!

I am a better dreadlord than Varimathras. He does not get praise and toys and loot.

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Squints So, that’s why you love bullet barrages so much! Gotta make sure all witnesses in every timeline can’t snitch!

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I prefer the term arrow swarm. When I perpetrate to perforate, everyone gets shafted.

:smiley:

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To people mentioning that he is perma dead, i will say that, i feel like demons in wow should be like demons in diablo, which means : completly immortal and no matter how many time you kill them, they will always come back, no matter if you kill them in their place or not.