I’m starting to get a slight feeling that hardcore Forsaken players don’t like Calia all that much?
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I’ll level with you Zen: she sucks.
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I don’t like the idea of Calia either, if I’m being honest. But she’s pretty much in the role at this point. I feel her presence murders that “vibe” the Forsaken have always given off, but we’ll see. Maybe the porcelain angel thing could fit.
Guys just give me a straight answer- do you want Calia as your leader?!
No. 
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I look forward to yet another female leader being hyper sexualized, ridiculed, warped, and otherwise hated for half a decade before she’s unceremoniously murdered/martyred/made crazy.
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It’s
So much, Idenna. It’s so much. I’d like Calia if they hadn’t done… gestures vaguely and halfheartedly at the 8.2.5/8.3 writing
Name one time that’s happened.
And Jaina doesn’t count.
And Sylvanas doesn’t either.
Or Tyrande.
Maiev also does not count.
Anveena doesn’t.
Besides them name one.
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The more I look at it, the more I’m seeing two sides to why Forsaken players enjoy playing the Forsaken!
I approach it personally from a very historical perspective, within the lore. The Forsaken’s history predates Sylvanas, in my estimation, and goes back to Lordaeron. The Second and Third Wars, the fall of Arthas, the destruction of the Kingdom, the rise of the Scourge. All of these were very valid components of Forsken History, in my opinion, well before Sylvanas came along and heroically gave a branch of undead free-will, a home, and a chance at vengeance upon Arthas. After his death, she guided them towards expanding their ranks and restoring their homeland. So for some, like myself, Sylvanas was only part of the Forsaken’s journey. A significant part… but a part. A component. Being a fallen human of Lordaeron, and not necessarily FULLY abandoning the values associated with that, is central to my perspective on the Forsaken narrative. Many of the Forsaken folks I know have this sort of feeling.
I think though, others, probably a majority, loved the Forsaken for their aesthetic. Their culture, their feel, their beliefs. The evil zombie-men plotting to make plagues and obtain their will, not caring who they use and abuse in the process. The allies of convenience, who never really cared about the Horde at all, and really only used them as a means to an end. I’ve even met quite a few Forsaken who OOCly feel like the faction should be a Sith-Empire kind of faction - clearly and unapologetically the bad guys. Sylvanas’ ideals have always been in step with this ethos, and the idea that the Forsaken have left their humanity behind them in its entirety, becoming something different. The victims who became something to be truly feared.
Between these two viewpoints there’s all sorts of ranges of viewpoints, which I actually really love. I don’t want every Forsaken to see the world the same way - part of why I love the race is that there’s such potential for ideological diversity within it.
I think one that most of us can agree on is that Calia was at the very least introduced POORLY. In an ideal world, she would have been a Forsaken, a significant one, for at least an amount of time. As it stands, she’s coming out of nowhere, rising from some random with a degree of historical relevance, but who has shown no interest in the Forsaken before this Expansion. She’s just… appeared. And now she’s going to be our faction leader. Despite not actually being Forsaken, really at all.
Personally I stand by the fact that I like the idea of Calia being our leader. I think she’ll bring a bit of ideological diversity more visibly into my favourite race, which I would love to see. ICly, as a devout Lordaeronian who recognises the Forsaken needs SOMEONE to lead them, Sarestha will support her. But much like everything else in this expansion that had potential, it was rushed, poorly executed, and made little sense. So…
MY take is good idea, poor execution.
But in general, I don’t think any Forsaken RPers are thrilled. Even me, ICly and OOCly, feels it could’ve been done better. And Calia will simply never hold the same reverence as Sylvanas did. Sylvanas was a hero, a saviour of the Forsaken. At best, Calia will be a competent yet controversial leader.
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We could’ve gone with any number of Forsaken who could bring some diversity and tone down the evil
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I think they’re doing with Calia what a lot of the new cinematic universes are doing when they hurriedly introduce comic book characters to their movies. They don’t put in the work to connect their audience to these characters, they just hope that name recognition will be enough and put the onus of caring for them on us.
Out of nowhere or not, Calia is the rightful heir, and I agree she could do interesting things for the Forsaken. But instead of putting work into showing us ways we can care about her journey to leadership, they just plopped her into the story. It’s a disservice to the audience and will cripple her journey in the future, because we’re missing the Calia 101 course where we learn her hopes and fears and sources of empathy.
And don’t forget she’s got about four or five years before she murmurs quietly, but still within earshot, “All according to plan…”
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I would argue that the Menethil’s right to rule the Forsaken died when the people did. Those who were risen into undeath were no longer beholden to the crown, most certainly not to the bloodline that enslaved them.
But there’s the argument to be had that they still revered the king’s burial site and chose to live beneath it, so, it goes both ways
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I feel like the whole Calia situation would be 100x better if Blizzard had actually just had Sylvanas kill and raise Calia so that way she was just like the Forsaken (the new generation of Forsaken from Cata onward) rather than have Calia be some weird light undead that is a special case.
I don’t know having Calia be a normal Forsaken makes her way more relatable to her people than she currently is. And it takes away her ties to Anduin, and the Alliance to a degree, because she wouldn’t have been raised by Anduin.
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This honestly fixes a few of my problems with Calia. Emotionally and psychologically, she has few ties with the Forsaken. She’s never BEEN forsaken.
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So correct.
As a first gen Forsaken on all but my Hunters (Nilla) We are evil, look at all the starting quests we are encouraged to give blight, create blight, test blight. And then we have the handful of revenge quests on the living Who stole from the Forsaken either before they passed along OR after.
The only emotion that we have is Revenge or Love of revenge. Sure we have free will, but with out sensory feelings things like warm food, scent etc is gone, so as things happen loss of eyesight for example other sense become “heightened” And for us it was/is Revenge and more anger/hatred emotions.
Second gen undeads while still having the same issues of loss of senses could still have more of a memory of those things, and are assumed to come from “other” places than scourge born. (raised by the Valkyrie but where did the corpse come from) And those missions they do still have that certain evil flair to them but you do see a bit of a ruffle with Sylvie where in Anderhol (sp) she takes one of the trouble makers to the Under parts of UC for reeducation.
There is no explainable reason why the “Light” would/could only half bring someone back from the dead, this is THE singular most asinine thing I have heard them attempt at doing, What honestly happened some low level priest read the scroll wrong? did the high priest hit the sauce before the ceremony and stutter? Was there a eclipse of the light?
If it goes thru I will make the decision if I stay or go in my WOW game playing, Yes it is there game and they can change the story and try and go back and say she was responsible for the Wrathgate or me stubbing my toe when I was 5, but its my time and if they are going to slag off my last 15 years, I too will slag off my monthly fee.
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There were certain moments in the War Campaign that made me think that this was going to be the case. Nathanos said certain things Sylvanas would not have, etc.
It was the whole reason I was OK with him (that, and grumpy characters don’t bother me too much as long as they’re not self-sabotaging).
That’s the thing here. Terenas remained a revered figure. Even at their darkest, the Forsaken appeared to revere him at least enough to take good care of his tomb and lament his death.
Arthas certainly forswore all rights to the Throne. I don’t think anyone even had pretensions about Calia returning to claim it. That incarnation of Lordaeron was dead. Gone. Kaput. At least as long as the Forsaken controlled those lands. There is no doubt that Sylvanas Windrunner was the legitimate Queen of Forsaken Lordaeron - she built it.
But, with Sylvanas’ recent actions… her incarnation of the Forsaken is also kaput. It’s gone.
Free will is integral to the Forsaken psyche. It always has been. Warden Stillwater, an important figure within the Forsaken, was executed on the spot for daring to take it away with his necromantic experiments in the Sludge Fields. Sylvanas’ government HATED the deprivation of free will… until she committed it herself.
Then, she abandoned the Horde and the Forsaken. This is very clear. Even in the Loyalist questline, she admits she never REALLY cared for them, even if she did sympathise with them. The Forsaken were a means to an end for her - and now she has forsaken them.
Like it or not, her Forsaken era has ended. Sylvanas has betrayed all Forsaken.
In terms of Calia’s suffering - I will die on this hill. She has never been a part of the Forsaken race, this is true. She does not share their recent history and culture. But emotionally and psychologically I would argue she knows EXACTLY what the Forsaken went through. She lost her family - her mother, father and brother, but later her husband and daughter as well. She lost her Kingdom, and had no place to truly live. She was mentored by Alonsus Faol, and believed in the free willed Undead well before becoming one. And she has now physically suffered what it means to be undead. She’s very much gone through the struggles of the Forsaken, and suffered similar emotional and psychological blows, even if she hasn’t fully walked in step with them historically.
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While I agree we don’t get the physical/living “rush” of emotions/hormones, I’d say it’s a stretch within the lore that we feel nothing except revenge.
Sylvanas herself still felt great love for her sister Vereesa, in the War Crimes novel. Sure, it was twisted and a little off (she wanted to make Vereesa dead), but she felt love. Beyond that there’s Thassarian, a death knight who still loves and protects his sister, and feels a strong connection with fellow Death Knight Koltira Deathweaver. If anything it’s not that the feelings are gone - it’s that they’re muted somewhat. For some more than others.
Furthermore, with free-will comes the capacity to reason. The whole “fake it till you make it” thing is relevant here - Sarestha for example, I RP as having a strong moral compass for the most part. She actively tries to fight against the cruel aspect of her nature as a death knight, by deciding what is right and wrong. Even in the absence of strong feelings, she has a recollection of what morality is, and chooses to abide by it. The undead not having feelings thing is proveably false in lore, and it’s been that way since at least BC, when Sylvanas mourned for Alleria.
Many of them, including those that the ‘adventurer’ plays as, seem to be actual Lordaeronian corpses, exhumed from graveyards. Lillian Voss, Valdred Moray and Marshal Redpath (the three Undead we encounter in the starting zone) were all Lordaeronian, although two of them were brought to Deathknell from other parts of Lordaeron - Silverpine and Hillsbrad respectively.
With this in mind, I would argue that evidence suggests that most Forsaken are still Lordaeronian, although there’s no doubt that Gilnean, Stormwinder, and even Stromic Forsaken do exist. Hell, we even have Kaldorei now. But the foundational masses, the majority of the Forsaken, are Lordaeronian.
The Light, when used for healing, has never been harmful towards Undead. Sure, they have a weakness to it. It burns them, it hurts like hell, but it doesn’t actually harm them. Here’s some quotes from the wowpedia article about the Light: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Light#On_undead
When undead channel the Light, they do not disintegrate or explode from channeling the Light, though they may wish they would. Instead, it feels to them as if their entire bodies are being consumed in righteous fire. Forsaken healed by the Light (whether the healer is Forsaken or not) are effectively cauterized by the effect: the wound is healed, but the healing effect is cripplingly painful. Thus, Forsaken priests are beings of unwavering willpower. Forsaken and death knight tanks suffer nobly when they have priest or paladin healers in the group, and Sir Zeliek really hates himself.
There are reports that some Forsaken have slowly experienced a sharpening of their dulled senses of touch, smell, etc., as well as an increase in the flashes of positive emotions that have otherwise become so rare since their fall into undeath. Unfortunately, this may be the cause of the Forsaken priesthood’s increased attempts at self-destruction; regaining these senses would force the priests to smell their own rotting flesh, taste the decay in their mouths and throats, and even feel the maggots burrowing within their bodies.
I actually find this to be pretty cool. The Light does have a healing effect on the Undead, to the point where some of its users actually regain aspects of their senses that they had in life. It’s unpleasant, but it heals.
With that in mind I don’t actually despise the notion of Lightforged Undead. The exact nature of it and how it affects Calia intrigues me. She’s an anomaly to say the least.
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This is the part I struggle with, because she’s undead after a fashion, but it’s a very different undead than even the Forsaken created by the val’kyr during Cataclysm.
We see very little of Calia’s suffering within the narrative of WoW (and WoW-adjacent material) which has chiefly been on purpose - I don’t believe the writers knew what to do with her and she was something of a constant in-joke, especially in Wrath when you could fish up her coin in the Dalaran fountain. She lost her family, yes, which is terrible - I can completely agree with you there - but she never lost her humanity, which is a key facet of the Forsaken and Forsaken existence.
Even in being killed and raised as she is, she’s not lost anything that tied her to her former life. She is supported by everyone she comes across in direct opposition to every Forsaken story, barring the Forsaken that Sylvanas destroyed after there was the possibility they could regain some semblance of their humanity again.
I think the unwavering support she has with her living friends/associates is what rankles me the most about the entire affair.
I really like your interpretation, though - you’re very thoughtful when it comes to the gentler aspects of free-willed undead, which I think is something that is often overlooked.
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Sarestha, I really do commend and admire your unrelenting optimism in this situation, and I understand that your interpretation of the Forsaken race allows for Calia to step into leadership with (mostly) high hopes for the future.
However, as you’ve acknowledged, many of us who chose the Forsaken did so because we enjoy the dark aesthetic, not because we want a “redemption” of sorts. And to clarify—I don’t think it’s because we want a race that’s one dimensional or tropey, either. You can be an unapologetic villain and still be sympathetic. There can be intrigue and depth in darkness.
It’s this that made the Forsaken so interesting. A race of victims who vowed never to be made victims again. And at the forefront, Sylvanas herself, who understood the Forsaken plight better than anyone—paraded before her people after having her soul torn from her body, the last act of humiliation forced upon her before she was then compelled to slaughter the very people she fought so hard to defend.
The trauma of undeath is real. It’s transformative. You don’t feel as you once did. Love and positive emotions come rarely, if at all. There are numerous lore examples of Forsaken speaking of how the love they once held for family and friends is nothing more than an echo in unlife. What love remains is twisted, warped, and tainted by the dark magic that’s imperfectly bound your soul to a decaying body.
And while the Light can indeed “heal” the undead, the pain of being healed and regaining sensations once thought lost is so terrible that it drives Forsaken to seek self-destruction. What kind of existence is that?
The Forsaken should not be reduced to a race that “just needs to be shown how to hope”. Abandoned. Adrift. Alone. These are words used to describe us by Jaina and Calia. But to suggest that we need a savior, especially one who has never experienced anything nearly as horrific as we have, isn’t just hasty writing—it’s downright insulting to everything about our racial identity.
We are a race birthed in shadows. Sylvanas understood, and she fought for years to secure a way for our race to endure, even if it meant casting morality aside. I don’t know what Blizzard intends to do with her character, but I do know that the alternative they’ve provided is antithetical to everything I associate with the Forsaken.
For the Dark Lady, always.
#NotMyQueen
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