07/24/2018 05:20 PMPosted by Daugilor are you just doing this so the complaints can all be shepherded to one thread?
Bingo.
Bingo.
07/24/2018 06:10 PMPosted by Æthelwulf07/24/2018 05:39 PMPosted by GruuhrAlso, guild chat hangs around forever. New guild members can see what was posted in guild chat prior to them joining. Also, officers can view messages posted in officer chat prior to their promotion.
This is not a good idea.
In point of fact, that is an acutely terrible Idea.
Blue lets ponder it this way. I will pretend to be you for a few moments of hypothetical time if I may?
I and my team are making decisions on who to bring up into the fold of developers. My team sends me and I send them emails on the candidates and the reviews by my teammates of those candidates. In those emails we talk about positives and negatives of personality of potential fitness of potential work ethic etc. These emails are only distributed between myself and my team and HR. A new candidate comes on board and now has access not only to new communications but to previous conversations in email. They also end up with HR's assessments as well. Could you please posit for us how my emails (filled with good intent though they are) might violate not only HR policy but harm the relationship of the new team member and the team and myself?
Same thing with the guild officer chat. It is not a good idea to allow information to hang out beyond its retention schedule. It causes problems. Problems that cost money.
Or... don't allow a person to view conversation prior to when they gained access?
Like, instead of removing the ability to review the conversations that you weren't there for (I've found it useful to seeing officer's meetings when I couldn't attend without someone having to regurgitate it), they make it so that you can't see chat you weren't privileged to at the time?
So, someone joins the guild, and they only see guild chat from the moment they joined forward. Someone joins officer rank, and they only see officer chat from the moment they joined forward.
This way, stuff that was 'private' stays private. You know they're going to be in officer chat from now on, so you're not going to say anything offensive or condemning. You may have said it before, but they don't have access to that because they weren't part of that conversation yet.
That said, I'm really a fan of being able to go back and see conversation history. It's something I've felt was sorely lacking in the chat department.
As an aside, this is not a company with legal restrictions or concerns. You're not going to be in trouble if someone saw that you said "X doesn't work well with Y, and they're not very good at Z task, but they're reliable and I think they'd make a good officer despite those things."
07/24/2018 08:18 PMPosted by VerinneAs an aside, this is not a company with legal restrictions or concerns. You're not going to be in trouble if someone saw that you said "X doesn't work well with Y, and they're not very good at Z task, but they're reliable and I think they'd make a good officer despite those things."
Can you realistically state that those type of 'restrictions' do not exist in our virtual world we call Azeroth?
I think they do. There are consequences to using certain types of language in chat. Look at this very forum on any of the "Why you silence me Blizz?" threads. There is a penalty to be had for dissemination of information that should not be disseminated in public chat channels. Blizzard has said that the same thing applies to communities. By my reckoning that also probably includes Guild Chat and Officer Chat channels in guilds. Those restrictions of which you speak are there.
You may not yet be subjected to regulatory or compliance risks that come with CPII information exposure but the concepts of reputational, relationship, strategic, and operational risk due to information exposure is very real. For Blizzard Developers it would also potentially lead to loss of stature in the community claims (frivolous or not) from affected consumers.
07/24/2018 05:18 PMPosted by Ythisens
This isn't needed as I've extended the thread cap on this one. Thanks guys!
Thank you, Ythisens. I appreciate the work here reading all our comments. I just spent the day reading angry Facebook messages at work, so I totally get that it's not the most fun job in the world.
I await more info from the devs.
07/23/2018 10:13 PMPosted by Carthorinn07/23/2018 09:34 PMPosted by TakodaI was planning a round of promotions, but now I feel like I have to wait. I don't want to get people's hopes up only to say "HAHA just kidding. No new permissions for you. Actually, you're losing permissions instead. Happy promotion!"
I would honestly encourage you to send them links to this thread and others so they can see that it isn't you specifically and that it's a forced change one blizzards end.
I'm thinking I might just plow ahead with it. At some point, waiting is meaningless and the gesture of I WANT to promote them is more value added to the guild. I'm not expecting drama, just disappointment. We're Army of Mulgore after all. A guild of cows is pretty chill.
Moo.
Giving serious thought to moving everything that can be moved out of game onto Discord tho. I need to discuss it with the other officers. Sorry Blizz, but there's going to be some trust issues here. I may be a chill cow, but I go all mama bear where my guild is concerned.
Guilds need more attention and options, not less.
07/24/2018 08:08 PMPosted by Veendell07/24/2018 07:52 PMPosted by CarthorinnYeah and if you delete the message it sticks out like a sore thumb like "Carhorinn deleted this message" so even if you do it for damage control people still go WTF is with the deleted messages LOL
Which I actually prefer. Since I cannot take that permission -away-, at least I can tell if the power was used, who used it, and who they used it on. As my officers have all been told "Don't do this. Just. Don't." that very important to me.
I don't mind it being there for the GM to review I mind that it stays there for the whole guild to see even if they don't have officer permissions. I agree I like to be able to see whats going on but if it was deleted it was more than likely a pre-emptive strike to prevent issues. Honestly anything going on should be in a review interface for the gm and/or officers to look over. Don't get me wrong I haven't needed to do so yet (I did do as a test) to see who could see it I literally said BLAH and deleted it. I just think the way GM's have to review actions right now is clunky. There needs to be a streamlined review worksheet kind of thing where I can just check it off as handled and move on LOL.
Daily bump
Firstly id like to thank Ythisens for extending the thread for us and hopefully we can expect more information from blizzard shortly in the coming days.
Secondly since this finally has come to light i would like to not only advocate for these permissions to be rebuilt but for blizzard to add MORE customisation to what we had not less!. I dont need to list all the ideas here because frankly they have been listed 500 times already. Please take on our community feedback and implement it blizzard. This is what your PAYING customers want, that makes them your intimidate stack-holders so listen to their wisdom.
I would like to end this post on an optimistic note and thank all those that have joined us in our fight against what essentially is oppression. We will not stand for it and im glad to see it is getting somewhere :)
Firstly id like to thank Ythisens for extending the thread for us and hopefully we can expect more information from blizzard shortly in the coming days.
Secondly since this finally has come to light i would like to not only advocate for these permissions to be rebuilt but for blizzard to add MORE customisation to what we had not less!. I dont need to list all the ideas here because frankly they have been listed 500 times already. Please take on our community feedback and implement it blizzard. This is what your PAYING customers want, that makes them your intimidate stack-holders so listen to their wisdom.
I would like to end this post on an optimistic note and thank all those that have joined us in our fight against what essentially is oppression. We will not stand for it and im glad to see it is getting somewhere :)
07/24/2018 10:35 PMPosted by McgrammarFirstly id like to thank Ythisens for extending the thread for us and hopefully we can expect more information from blizzard shortly in the coming days.
Secondly, I have a hard time believing many Blizzard employees play World of Warcraft due to some of the decisions that have been made. it doesn't take a genius to know that guilds have been in bad shape for a long while and Blizzard has done absolutely nothing to help them out.
Thirdly, this thread shouldn't even have to have been a thing if the dev's would even slightly take player feedback into consideration.
Wow, awful change. We allow our raiders can SPEAK in officer but can't SEE it. We do this to avoid the whole /w <officer name> "QQQQ complaints" and instead post them to all of us during raid. We also have raiders allowed to change public notes so they can mark peoples' alts and stuff. This change just breaks both of these.
Please, PLEASE change this back. Leave the "is officer" thing if you want to differentiate between the tags and not, that's fine, but wow this is just one of the worst changes I've ever seen in a long time, and I've been here both before and after Warlord's.
Please, PLEASE change this back. Leave the "is officer" thing if you want to differentiate between the tags and not, that's fine, but wow this is just one of the worst changes I've ever seen in a long time, and I've been here both before and after Warlord's.
Forgive my rudeness.... Thank you so much Ythisens for the thread extension. Even a simple thread extension is a step in the right direction. Also lets just take a moment here.... and remember why we are here.
This thread has been constructive and non toxic from the start. Please keep that in mind and lets try to keep it that way. They do not extend threads they consider bad or an attack so let's try to stay positive. Also I would imagine extending a thread would also internally flag it for review? I could be wrong.
But nonetheless I think we need to just keep posting new idea's and feedback as we run across issues and not dwell on rather or not 1/2 the thread is posted in blue. One blue post means a team of blue's saw it. It will eventually get passed along to the right people. I know that is frustrating but the forum staff can only forward feedback for specific issues to specific teams. They themselves cannot change in game features/code. If the could the would do it.
This thread has been constructive and non toxic from the start. Please keep that in mind and lets try to keep it that way. They do not extend threads they consider bad or an attack so let's try to stay positive. Also I would imagine extending a thread would also internally flag it for review? I could be wrong.
But nonetheless I think we need to just keep posting new idea's and feedback as we run across issues and not dwell on rather or not 1/2 the thread is posted in blue. One blue post means a team of blue's saw it. It will eventually get passed along to the right people. I know that is frustrating but the forum staff can only forward feedback for specific issues to specific teams. They themselves cannot change in game features/code. If the could the would do it.
07/24/2018 10:40 PMPosted by Draical07/24/2018 10:35 PMPosted by McgrammarFirstly id like to thank Ythisens for extending the thread for us and hopefully we can expect more information from blizzard shortly in the coming days.
Secondly, I have a hard time believing many Blizzard employees play World of Warcraft due to some of the decisions that have been made. it doesn't take a genius to know that guilds have been in bad shape for a long while and Blizzard has done absolutely nothing to help them out.
Thirdly, this thread shouldn't even have to have been a thing if the dev's would even slightly take player feedback into consideration.
+1
07/24/2018 09:17 PMPosted by KellorionGuilds need more attention and options, not less.
Well, I was finally redirected towards this by someone on my B-tag. I was waiting for the first week for the pre-patch to simmer down since everything might as well have been on fire in regards to what was broken, dying, and outright destroyed.
While I was testing on Beta when they first implemented the change to the monstrosity known as Guild&Communities, it was so outright filled with bugs you had to submit several reports to get half of them...the WORST part was that this came in the month of May. Slapping in another drastic UI change so late into the Beta had me terrified considering how many errors there were and continued to persist till earlier this month...on Beta. I do not know what caused Blizzard to think that slapping in so many UI changes at the same time was a good idea especially when it was added to late in the testing.
THE ONLY 2 things I like is being able to see chats you may have missed while offline, and being able to require an authenticator to be a certain rank that it was tagged for. Even then after reading a few posts I can also see how this can be a horrifying double edged sword.
In all honesty, guilds have been asking for more customization since Blizzard finally gave some attention back in Cataclysm...This is 10 steps backwards from guild management in comparison to any other expansion.
While I was testing on Beta when they first implemented the change to the monstrosity known as Guild&Communities, it was so outright filled with bugs you had to submit several reports to get half of them...the WORST part was that this came in the month of May. Slapping in another drastic UI change so late into the Beta had me terrified considering how many errors there were and continued to persist till earlier this month...on Beta. I do not know what caused Blizzard to think that slapping in so many UI changes at the same time was a good idea especially when it was added to late in the testing.
- People are shown when they were last online...under location, god forbid the logic in that.
Privileges are all clumped into a pile called officer. Which in my honest opinion just looks like someone didn't want to be bothered to add the code for each check box and implementation of each.
Changing how you view your guild roster is even more incompatible than it was previously, and has worse logic such as previously when you selected level and then rank on the roster it would arrange it by highest rank in order of their level, now its just by rank in any order of level.
THE ONLY 2 things I like is being able to see chats you may have missed while offline, and being able to require an authenticator to be a certain rank that it was tagged for. Even then after reading a few posts I can also see how this can be a horrifying double edged sword.
In all honesty, guilds have been asking for more customization since Blizzard finally gave some attention back in Cataclysm...This is 10 steps backwards from guild management in comparison to any other expansion.
As a guild leader, I had two ranks of officer. One didn't have as many permissions as the other one did.
I can't get behind this change. Why take away choices?
I can't get behind this change. Why take away choices?
07/24/2018 11:36 PMPosted by SjungaAs a guild leader, I had two ranks of officer. One didn't have as many permissions as the other one did.
I can't get behind this change. Why take away choices?
With these changes, forget even making new ranks, since now there are basically only 3 ranks that mean anything.
- GM
- Officer
- Member
I'm also going to echo asking to bring the cherry picking of guild permissions back. Sorry for the short novel ahead, but I want to maybe help provide more points if any others missed, or reinforce ones that have already been said.
We had several roles aside from GM such as Officer, Recruiter, Members, and Casuals as the main used ranks.
GM/Officer
Only the GM and Officers are able to read "officer" chat as they are the people who are leading the raid, finalizing how we are puling the encounter, and making rotations. It allowed us to let our raiders privately alert all of us of any issues, comments, or concerns instead of worrying about whispering everyone and praying someone catches it (some of our players are notorious for not reading at times). We also take volunteers to rotate out for our bench all go to officer chat so whispers aren't spammed everywhere.
-With the new system installed, non GM/Officer can no longer type in officer chat. When we were looking for volunteers to sit and to see who needed to be in for loot from the bosses we were pulling, we were confused when our members were not able to type in officer chat, and it was super unexpected and a real shame. It also hurts the ability for people to ask questions and not feel shamed that they were unsure or our people with anxiety issues to voice themselves privately to our officer core during a guild activity.
Recruiter
Recruiter rank entails going out and getting new blood for any spots we need. The reason this role was set up, is because our Officer core was simply too busy to dedicate the time needed for this very important raiding guild function. Recruiters set up verbal interviews and go over the applications to see if they are a good fit. They are typically on more often then are officer core and have the permission to invite players. Upon inviting a player we typically make sure whoever invites them sets a note to let us know when they joined the guild and that they are a trial.
-Recruiters can no longer invite our trials, guild alts, or edit notes. Recruiters have no need to be reading officer chat, because it is an extra stress that they did not want to sign up for. With this being a now officer only rank, this has destroyed their ability to send out invites/set notes so they are unable to complete their jobs. Players such as our applicants/member alts can potentially be "punished" to wait for an officer to be online (Waiting for 1 of 3 people to log on vs 1 of 6).
Members/Casuals
Members/Casuals had free reign to edit their guild notes for fun. A favorite "game" that was done would have to be an quote that a player has said during raid, voice, guild chat, ect. is quickly put in their note for all to see and remember. Sometimes we forget about them until a new quote or moment comes up to change the note and all re-laugh at the notes. This has been going on in my guild for 10 years now (Yes! 10 year anniversary of an end game raiding community! We are doing something right here!). Member/casual alts were also put into the notes so we knew who their mains were.
-Felt like our fun was detected and removed. The thrill of randomly checking your note and seeing something amusing has been stripped of us. Having to wait for an officer to be online now not only to invite, but remember to change the note with main/alt info so we can remember who it is, just annoying.
--------------------------------------------------
TL/DR
There was nothing wrong with the original design! Please bring it back!
We had several roles aside from GM such as Officer, Recruiter, Members, and Casuals as the main used ranks.
GM/Officer
Only the GM and Officers are able to read "officer" chat as they are the people who are leading the raid, finalizing how we are puling the encounter, and making rotations. It allowed us to let our raiders privately alert all of us of any issues, comments, or concerns instead of worrying about whispering everyone and praying someone catches it (some of our players are notorious for not reading at times). We also take volunteers to rotate out for our bench all go to officer chat so whispers aren't spammed everywhere.
-With the new system installed, non GM/Officer can no longer type in officer chat. When we were looking for volunteers to sit and to see who needed to be in for loot from the bosses we were pulling, we were confused when our members were not able to type in officer chat, and it was super unexpected and a real shame. It also hurts the ability for people to ask questions and not feel shamed that they were unsure or our people with anxiety issues to voice themselves privately to our officer core during a guild activity.
Recruiter
Recruiter rank entails going out and getting new blood for any spots we need. The reason this role was set up, is because our Officer core was simply too busy to dedicate the time needed for this very important raiding guild function. Recruiters set up verbal interviews and go over the applications to see if they are a good fit. They are typically on more often then are officer core and have the permission to invite players. Upon inviting a player we typically make sure whoever invites them sets a note to let us know when they joined the guild and that they are a trial.
-Recruiters can no longer invite our trials, guild alts, or edit notes. Recruiters have no need to be reading officer chat, because it is an extra stress that they did not want to sign up for. With this being a now officer only rank, this has destroyed their ability to send out invites/set notes so they are unable to complete their jobs. Players such as our applicants/member alts can potentially be "punished" to wait for an officer to be online (Waiting for 1 of 3 people to log on vs 1 of 6).
Members/Casuals
Members/Casuals had free reign to edit their guild notes for fun. A favorite "game" that was done would have to be an quote that a player has said during raid, voice, guild chat, ect. is quickly put in their note for all to see and remember. Sometimes we forget about them until a new quote or moment comes up to change the note and all re-laugh at the notes. This has been going on in my guild for 10 years now (Yes! 10 year anniversary of an end game raiding community! We are doing something right here!). Member/casual alts were also put into the notes so we knew who their mains were.
-Felt like our fun was detected and removed. The thrill of randomly checking your note and seeing something amusing has been stripped of us. Having to wait for an officer to be online now not only to invite, but remember to change the note with main/alt info so we can remember who it is, just annoying.
--------------------------------------------------
TL/DR
There was nothing wrong with the original design! Please bring it back!
I know its late but I would like to keep this discussion on the front page.
the person above me pointed it out clear and concise. that is the feedback Blizzard wanted and now that its there lets pray to the RNG gods that they listen.
the person above me pointed it out clear and concise. that is the feedback Blizzard wanted and now that its there lets pray to the RNG gods that they listen.
07/25/2018 12:01 AMPosted by Narumata
TL/DR
There was nothing wrong with the original design! Please bring it back!
Hey all,
First thing:
Just wanted to thank everyone for keeping this post going/on the front page.
Second thing:
Now that we have at least in some small way been acknowledged by blizz id like to try and steer the convo away from grabbing their attention (which we have) and more towards what we actually want from them because i can tell you now there will not be a lot of these moments available too us.
So final thing:
For everyone that is keeping this going (i love you all <3) lets get as much detailed information about actual changes that we want to see from them. Im not just talking about reverting, im talking about really revamping this system and making it what we want it to be!
First thing:
Just wanted to thank everyone for keeping this post going/on the front page.
Second thing:
Now that we have at least in some small way been acknowledged by blizz id like to try and steer the convo away from grabbing their attention (which we have) and more towards what we actually want from them because i can tell you now there will not be a lot of these moments available too us.
So final thing:
For everyone that is keeping this going (i love you all <3) lets get as much detailed information about actual changes that we want to see from them. Im not just talking about reverting, im talking about really revamping this system and making it what we want it to be!
07/25/2018 01:59 AMPosted by McgrammarHey all,
First thing:
Just wanted to thank everyone for keeping this post going/on the front page.
Second thing:
Now that we have at least in some small way been acknowledged by blizz id like to try and steer the convo away from grabbing their attention (which we have) and more towards what we actually want from them because i can tell you now there will not be a lot of these moments available too us.
So final thing:
For everyone that is keeping this going (i love you all <3) lets get as much detailed information about actual changes that we want to see from them. Im not just talking about reverting, im talking about really revamping this system and making it what we want it to be!
Most of the things I've thought of over the years, have already been suggested along the way in this thread.
Some additional ideas (that may or may not be plausible)...
Our guild cannot function in the manner we intended.. it's our guild and it's very frustrating that our control of it has been taken away from us.. We had 3 tiers of officer that handled certain duties with certain limitations in place that were stripped away.. it's either all or nothing does not work for us.. We allowed everyone in our guild to post guild events to encourage our guild mates to plan their own activities and get guild mates involved.. can no longer post guild event for open signup so this has been taken from us.. Being forced to use the community feature is not what we wanted to do but you've forced it on us in order to post open signup events. After 12 years having our options stripped from us is not right.. We are managing the best we can in the meantime but its hindered our guild to function the way we want