The numbers show that Havoc is the class the a majority of melee players are playing, and yet it doesn’t have even it’s Dev. That’s obvious by this janky tree that really has no synergy, we watched Ret get a TOTAL rework and made awesome, while we get a minor nerf, after ONLY getting nerfed since the release of the beta. I am glad for chaos brand because honestly, it’s the only reason DH will be in raids, just watch we will continue to fall down the charts, supposedly we are S class but that’s mainly in the hands of the very best! A majority of players can’t do momentum well and yet it’s still forced down our throats, I’ve seen post after post begging for an alternative and not one word from Blizzard. I do love seeing this new open blizzard but I just wish the Havoc player-base would actually get some attention and to see this new awesome Blizzard in action!
I tottaly agree with all being said. It was fun season 1 but idk if I ll stay for 2nd one. We def could use some improvements.
It actually amazes me that little to no changes have been made to this class. We have objectively some of the worst ST damage, even when we spec for it. Isolated prey is in such an weird place in the talent tree, and relentless onslaught being on the far right of the tree makes no sense either. They really need to dig deep and make some serious change to this class. The only thing we excel at is M+ and multi target fights.
Its astonishing the level of ignorance the devs have
I’m a good DH I know my stuff, I push hard and tonight my dps was so beyond atrocious, it was embarrassing. Third on all the bosses. We keep getting nerfed but as it’s been said no help with the ST. Even the nerfs today were felt in AOE pulls. If something doesn’t change my main will be benched. Again. As it was in SLs season 4.
I find it disturbing that one of the best classes in the game complains so much about their situation. DH is still the best melee spec in the game for several reasons.
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Their AoE is fantastic, top 5 in fact.
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They buff Magic damage by 5%, so in M+ comp 5% of that mages dps is because of you, take credit for it.
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Good utility - Chaos Nova, Darkness, Consume Magic, and Imprison. This is better than almost any class.
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Best Survivability for all Melee classes - Blur is one of the best defensives in the game, not only does it add dodge, it is also a 1 minute CD, most classes are 2-3 minutes.
All of this makes you great, but you want to complain about being middle of the pack single target DPS.
Yes I play a Havoc DH and they may need some minor quality of life changes, but overall as a spec their are currently tied with Sub Rouge for the best melee class at the moment for both raids and M+.
Current rankings for DPS have Havoc at 10th for single target DPS to bosses in Mythic VOI. In normal and heroic it’s on the bottom half for boss damage, but only 1 fight in VOI is pure single target.
Fury warrior is more survivable. More leech, spell reflect, bitter immunity, enraged regeneration.
I see where you’re coming from, though. My issue (any many others) is that Havoc momentum-build is awful to play. I understand people want skill expression, and that’s important - but this playstyle is just awful. I honestly believe if they tied a maintenance buff to using Glide while in combat, there would be a group of people defending it.
Momentum isn’t hard though. It’s actually very easy. There are some fights where it is more difficult, but in general it isn’t as bad as other class issues. In fact it’s a maintenance buff that is triggered off multiple abilities. This design is much better than of dusk and dawn that Paladins have to deal with.
For survivability Havoc DH still have Illidari Knowledge, charred Warblades, soul rending, will of the illidari, blur, darkness. fodder, and the Hunt.
Every attack we do heals us via charred warblades and with leech.
DH is in an enviable spot for most if not all Melee specs. There will always be things to complain about for any class/spec, but it is important to keep perspective. You could be an MM hunter after all.
There is no more tedious melee spec in the game. Dusk and dawn was completely reworked to being maintained from generating/spending. You no longer have to cap holy power and spend it all. They recognized it sucks and fixed it.
It’s not hard relative to what? Relative to elden ring? Yeah, it’s not hard. Relative to fury warrior? Yes it is much, much harder. If I’m in azure vault and there are swirly everywhere, can’t be with tank because the mobs cleave, there is an edge i can fall off of, a patrol I could fel rush into if I’m not careful, and thundering means I need to move to an ally - guess my momentum falls off?
Ask any havoc player how fun the first boss of Court of Stars is with momentum.
If they added a talent that made typing /sit in the chat for a damage boost, would that be hard? Would that be compelling gameplay?
This right here!
They still haven’t fixed the Fel Rush bug. Every now and then, we’ll Fel Rush to Narnia.
Somehow in VOTI, I Fel rushed completely THROUGH a wall and fell to my death.
I play havoc, and the first boss of Court of Stars isn’t hard for maintaining momentum. If the tank has proper positioning you are able to go through the center through the side with fel rush. Resonant slash is 100% predictable where it is going to be, always in front and behind him. The only random part of the fight is streetsweeper which is easy enough to avoid. As for cleaves it’s on the tank to position in a manor that you can fel rush side to side without getting cleaved.
I have done both of these dungeons, as Havoc DH, that you have mentioned and have had little issue with momentum. Momentum requires awareness and skill to use properly and each of these situations require both. Not every talent is great for every situation and many other classes and specs have to adjust their talent tree per dungeon to perform better.
The hyperbole here at the end of your post only makes the claims of momentum seem even more invalid. If you don’t like momentum take Chaos Theory. It’s a DPS loss but it’s an option.
As for of Dusk and dawn the previous state was considerably worse than what momentum is currently.
The point of this is that DH doesn’t need a rework. There are only two main issues that people seem to care about.
- Middle of the pack ST DPS.
- Momentum.
But what are you willing to sacrifice to improve these two?
I’m willing to sacrifice momentum - easily. I hate it. Would gladly kill it.
Then take Glaive tempest, you have options. Devs don’t read forums usually, they look at logs that show what talents people are using. As long as people continue to use momentum then they will think it is good. Simple as that.
I agree with some of the points you made here. We have great survivability, no question or concern there really. But so does warrior, dk and rogue.
In certain situations like last boss in CoS on Tyran weeks other classes with their defensives will outshine DH. This is fine and I accept not being the best in every situation.
Our DPS is also good…on three or more targets and less than ten, we have very high multi target burst potential. I believe this lends to the misconception that we’re top 5 in multi target. Which, in high end cases, we are not. That belongs to Unholy DK, Feral Druid, Fire Mage, Rogue, and Shadow Priest. (With incoming changes it seems Ret Pally and Ele Sham will join that list) We do however shine in lower tiers of play where most of the player base reside so ill give you that point.
Sometimes we dip into that top 5 range of damage, but in most cases regarding players of equal skill and efficient tanking we will not displace them.
Our single target damage however is not anywhere near middle of the pack. Its low. Like bottom 5 dps specs in the game low. (Depending on fight length) If any multi target is present though our numbers appear better. This I believe is what many players want a change on. Myself included.
Glaive tempest is a cool talent. I would rather take it than momentum. Especially on fights like terros where movement is restricted. Truth is though, that we dont have the points to stretch and reach that without handicapping the kit. So for those of us who like to play efficiently, it isnt an option.
In regards to what I would trade for improvements: Ill take another leech/survivability hit if my survivability is genuinely a concern, and ill shove momentum where the sun doesnt shine. Ever.
Asking for more would be disingenuous in the grand scheme of play considering we dont have a second DPS spec to chose from as a DH.
This is my main btw. Didnt mean to post on an old Alt.
Were not even middle of the pack. Do you even look at the data available? Were literally in the same numbers as feral druid, fury warrior, and ww monk.
Look at shadow priest. They bring PI, and out damage us in single target AND AoE right now. Why is it so hard to understand the discrepency in classes when it comes to boss damage? Look how balanced we are in overall damage charts due to AoE, why cant we be bumped up a bit along with the other classes who are like 7-10k behind in single target?
While I can agree to the concept of 5% of their damage really being accredited to us and I usually forget to look at it that way at the end of a M+ or an encounter. But, it doesn’t really make up for the fact someone else is doing the damage for us. It’s like some weird passive submissive crap, like we aren’t capable of doing it ourselves, but we provide others the ability to do it for us instead.
I think you’re missing the point of the original post, DH has had very minimal design over its history, heck, even the Evoker is having talk of a 3rd spec before DH. We use to have more sustain ST dmg and not so much burst/cleave. Now the tables have turned and we have excellent burst/cleave and poor ST sustain (more like bottom of the pack). Aside from that, I think it’s more from a playstyle/design flaw that we DH’s feel is always swept under the rug. Our tier sets (both in appearance and bonuses) are rather lack luster compared to others and our core design just has minimal efforts put in. I think most people’s complaints aren’t so much as what you make it out to be, but rather a dissatisfaction with development and improvements put in to DH design.
I was complaining about our constant nerfs to a guildie, and his defense was, “you guys are S tier you need to be nerfed”.
Whoever is in charge of class tuning obviously doesn’t know what they’re doing.
I am too. While I main tanking, what attracted me to DH is the simplicity of the class. So while people cry that it’s a “no skill” class… some of us prefer that. That is why there are different classes, after all.
Momentum is just a pain and in some cases, unusable. You are putting yourself at risk or punishing other players.
Azure Vaults with its constant swirls on the ground, the first boss in Temple with his tiny platforms, avoiding spreading aids on Dathea, the slippery floor on Sennarth, standing there during charge phase for Raz…
People just look at wowhead tier list without looking at the data. Sure, were great in M+, we have great AoE and utility. But there is more to a class than just how much AoE they can dish out. There are several raid encounters next tier that are single target encounters.
You clearly never played a DH
Our AoE is great
OH BOY 5% buff that makes us important in a raid. Goodie!
Missing Netherwalk
So does Fury Warrior
In that very small list, you never mentioned our ST DPS, why is that I reckon? We are not complaining because we have good AoE or we have a magic buff to give people or half way decent utility, we have been FOR MONTHs, YEARS EVEN, asking for some SINGLE TARGET BUFFs. But no one seems to look at the data they look at Overall and go, “DH is fine.”