11/09/2018 11:35 PMPosted by
Anelaan
11/09/2018 01:48 PMPosted by
Pellex
On the choice whether to support Sylvanas or Saurfang:
"Once you play a choice like that, you have to follow it through, so in subsequent quests that come out, you're going to be on the side you pick, and we'll see what comes of that, if you're right or wrong."
If Saurfang ends up being the "wrong choice" wouldn't that mean that Blizzard's original plan was to force the Horde player to "choose" the "wrong side"?
... I don't know what it says about my faith in Blizzard's current writing that I can't decide if that being true would make Saurfang less, or more, likely to end up being the "wrong choice".
I think you should rephrase what you're trying to say, blizzard isn't forcing anyone to choose a side.
People are forgetting the passage directly after the Wrathgate/Battle for Undercity parts that say that she in fact didn't plan the Wrathgate with Putress, but had been ordering the production of the Plague, which we've basically always knew.
Sylvanas's Role at the Wrathgate
Like most good lies, Sylvanas Windrunner's account of the rebellion in the Undercity contained some truth. Grand Apothecary Putress truly had attempted to overthrow her, and Varimathras truly was trying to claim the Forsaken in the name of the Burning Legion.
But the plague had been created at her direction. Sylvanas was willing to take vengeance against the Lich King at almost any cost, even by making a weapon as deadly as the plague. Whether she was aware that Putress and Varimathras were planning to use the concoction remains a mystery. Rumors persisted that she knew about the attack at the Wrath Gate beforehand, and her denials did not assuage the doubts of her detractors.
As far as I can tell, the last part is referring to Garrosh, which led to the placement of Kor'kron in the Undercity and his actions in Edge of Night.
People are forgetting the passage directly after the Wrathgate/Battle for Undercity parts that say that she in fact didn't plan the Wrathgate with Putress, but had been ordering the production of the Plague, which we've basically always knew.
That part really isn't in dispute - the problem is, as per the Chronicles retcon that follows that passage, they move responsibility for Dranosh's death from Arthas (who runs him through in the Wrathgate cinematic) to the Blight, which moves responsibility for his death more in Sylvanas' direction, if not directly on her shoulders. It's wholly, massively unnecessary, and not only directly contradicts a fondly remembered in-game event, but also then throws the canon existence of a raid boss, Deathbringer Saurfang, into question.
Not having Dranosh killed by the Lich King is a decision with enormous consequences. I find it worrying because it seems like they could then use this to pile even more villainry upon Sylvanas, and even though people may not mind right now because they hate her, it shows Blizzard treating their own game's history with extreme casualness.
11/09/2018 01:55 PMPosted by
Jellex
Did they not specifically state "we don't want anyone to feel like they chose the wrong faction" before this expansion?
Oh please. Horde raiding guilds far outstrip Alliance raiding guilds because of the legacy left by formerly overpowered racials. The Horde has victoriously blown up numerous cities and towns while the Alliance has, what, captured a Horde camp and bungled that? Managed not to die after getting lured into Sylvanas' city sized trap? Invading Zuldazar in a phyrric victory seems about all they can accomplish.
If any faction's the "right" one, it's the Horde.
The Dranosh thing feels more like an oversight than a deliberate retcon to me. Granted the big lore book that cost like 40 bucks shouldn't even have oversights, but we're dealing with Blizzard here.
11/09/2018 07:45 PMPosted by
Jellex
I know the anti-Sylvanas and anti-Horde posters are crowing right now because all of the recent announcements have gone their way, but this should be sobering if you step back and think about it.
how can i be happy about this? they literally said that she will escape after being a raid boss and committing an atrocity, where did i heard this before?...
No, they didn't. They said "It would be a mistake to think she'll go down as just another raid boss." Maybe they mean her third death will usher in the coming of the Void Lords, so she'll be an
EPIC raid boss, not "just another" one.
who is going to pay for teldrassil? because someone needs to pay for it.
The writers SHOULD pay for it. But I have a horrible feeling Horde players are going to end up paying for it, one way or another.
11/10/2018 06:46 AMPosted by
Hyolia
11/09/2018 01:55 PMPosted by
Jellex
Did they not specifically state "we don't want anyone to feel like they chose the wrong faction" before this expansion?
Oh please. Horde raiding guilds far outstrip Alliance raiding guilds because of the legacy left by formerly overpowered racials. The Horde has victoriously blown up numerous cities and towns while the Alliance has, what, captured a Horde camp and bungled that? Managed not to die after getting lured into Sylvanas' city sized trap? Invading Zuldazar in a phyrric victory seems about all they can accomplish.
If any faction's the "right" one, it's the Horde.
This is a bit off topic, but lets not get crazy. High End raiding is a sliver of the population.
I have had trouble enjoying the Alliance. Racials dont even enter into that equation.
I mained Alliance during Garrosh's reign through to most of Legion. Its just meh.
All the races have the same color scheme and silhouettes. The Worgen stand out - but a bit too much. I played Alliance before, but the Horde just has more...flavor. Flare.
The Void Elves have made it easier for me. I actually have a Void Elf Monk! I havent made a Monk ever! But Void Elves make the Alliance more tolerable.
The Alliance just needs more appeal.
11/10/2018 06:46 AMPosted by
Hyolia
11/09/2018 01:55 PMPosted by
Jellex
Did they not specifically state "we don't want anyone to feel like they chose the wrong faction" before this expansion?
Oh please. Horde raiding guilds far outstrip Alliance raiding guilds because of the legacy left by formerly overpowered racials. The Horde has victoriously blown up numerous cities and towns while the Alliance has, what, captured a Horde camp and bungled that? Managed not to die after getting lured into Sylvanas' city sized trap? Invading Zuldazar in a phyrric victory seems about all they can accomplish.
If any faction's the "right" one, it's the Horde.
But racials have nothing to do with this.
For what it's worth, I agree. Fix Alliance racials - balance things out. Racials are a balance pendulum they have never gotten right. They just hammer down the one that sticks out. First it was Will of the Forsaken. Then it was Quickness. Then it was Every Man for Himself. This time it was Arcane Torrent. Next it'll probably be Berserking. It goes around and around, and right now racials are firmly on the Horde's side. I think in the G'huun Mythic race, there were 11 Horde guilds in the top standings before you even saw a single Alliance guild, and then like 30 more Horde guilds after that.
That, however, is not the purpose of this discussion. I haven't even checked, but I am sure there are a hundred racial flame threads in GD because that's where a discussion on racials goes. But let's please not derail this thread any more with an argument on racials - this will be my last post on the matter.
Well I think I've read enough "I want to choose the genocidal team damning people to hell without Blizz calling it wrong. Is that so much to ask?" For one morning. Idk what's so hard about owning it. Eesh.
Here I am kinda wishing Blue Team had more Taurajos and boatloads of Goblin civilians moments because I feel its nice to be on the receiving end of the word of god's condemnation in a narrative sometimes. Shrug.
This is a bit off topic, but lets not get crazy. High End raiding is a sliver of the population.
Haven't checked the stats recently but I'm pretty sure the Horde kicks Alliance butt in more casual scenes like M+ or non-competitive raiding, even just by the sheer availability in comparison to Alliance side.
But Void Elves make the Alliance more tolerable.
The imported Horde race being the thing that makes Alliance less awful isn't exactly a credit to the Alliance.
I main Alliance but let's face it, Horde's way better. If you're into equally the aesthetic and don't mind some pretty questionable actions any more than the lack thereof, it's not even a contest, the Horde is far superior.
Don't even get me started on how much more powerful it is to be able to reanimate your enemies even stronger than they were before.
Minor tangent speaking of, I've been only sort of paying attention recently: what's the deal with the Forsaken Night Elves? Didn't they establish that the Valkyr only work on Humans back in Silverpine? They were pretty annoyed because they couldn't reanimate the Dwarves, weren't they?
I also dont want to derail the topic further so I will stay away from the tit-for-tat on Faction bonuses after this.
Suffice it to say, whether it is racials, aesthetics, or Story, the three of us talking about this agree:
The Alliance is lacking in appeal and that needs to be remedied.
Blizzard's answer seems to be to make the Horde so disgusting to play, the Alliance might get more transfers. They fail to realize they created a world where their Horde players:
Horde > Unsub > Alliance
Unless the Alliance becomes more appealing.
11/10/2018 07:14 AMPosted by
Serevèn
Well I think I've read enough "I want to choose the genocidal team damning people to hell without Blizz calling it wrong. Is that so much to ask?" For one morning. Idk what's so hard about owning it. Eesh.
I, for one, do not want to follow an evil warchief.
But I ALSO do not want to have to overthrow another evil warchief, especially if I have to ask for the Alliance's help in doing it.
I don't know what's so hard to understand about that.
11/10/2018 08:01 AMPosted by
Pellex
But I ALSO do not want to have to overthrow another evil warchief, especially if I have to ask for the Alliance's help in doing it.
And I don't want to have Sylvanas always dodge all the negative karma she keeps building up, getting away from nearly everything scot-free. I don't know what's so hard to understand about that.
Overthrow's really the only option, if not, the Alliance players officially can't get anything other than kicked in the teeth.
You could kill every single Alliance racial leader in exchange for all I care, but Sylvanas needs to die. Permanently.
11/10/2018 08:12 AMPosted by
Hyolia
11/10/2018 08:01 AMPosted by
Pellex
But I ALSO do not want to have to overthrow another evil warchief, especially if I have to ask for the Alliance's help in doing it.
And I don't want to have Sylvanas always dodge all the negative karma she keeps building up, getting away from nearly everything scot-free. I don't know what's so hard to understand about that.
I do understand it, actually. I hate that they've set things up so that someone has to be upset, but I understand the Alliance perspective.
My point, though, is that a Horde player saying "I support Sylvanas" doesn't necessarily translate to "I love murdering Night Elf babies!"
(And for the record, I don't exactly support her, but I don't support Saurfang's rebellion either. I hate both options.)
11/10/2018 08:24 AMPosted by
Pellex
11/10/2018 08:12 AMPosted by
Hyolia
...And I don't want to have Sylvanas always dodge all the negative karma she keeps building up, getting away from nearly everything scot-free. I don't know what's so hard to understand about that.
I do understand it, actually. I hate that they've set things up so that someone has to be upset, but I understand the Alliance perspective.
My point, though, is that a Horde player saying "I support Sylvanas" doesn't necessarily translate to "I love murdering Night Elf babies!"
(And for the record, I don't exactly support her, but I don't support Saurfang's rebellion either. I hate both options.)
The problem is Pellex, that for some Alliance players the net result is the same, even if the motivation is different. It can create a deep abiding resentment of horde players. Because from the Alliance perspective it comes across as wanting to have one’s cake and eat it too, to the explicit expense of the Alliance.
People are forgetting the passage directly after the Wrathgate/Battle for Undercity parts that say that she in fact didn't plan the Wrathgate with Putress, but had been ordering the production of the Plague, which we've basically always knew.
Whether she was aware that Putress and Varimathras were planning to use the concoction remains a mystery. Rumors persisted that she knew about the attack at the Wrath Gate beforehand, and her denials did not assuage the doubts of her detractors.
No one's forgetting anything.
In a reference book that ostensibly existed for the sole purpose of setting the canon straight, they went out of their way to obfuscate and leave the door open for shifting substantially more responsibility for the Wrathgate on to Sylvanas.
11/10/2018 08:28 AMPosted by
Saiphas
The problem is Pellex, that for some Alliance players the net result is the same, even if the motivation is different. It can create a deep abiding resentment of horde players. Because from the Alliance perspective it comes across as wanting to have one’s cake and eat it too, to the explicit expense of the Alliance.
And that's frankly idiotic. Blaming players for the decisions of the devs isn't something anyone should have patience or sympathy for.
11/10/2018 08:28 AMPosted by
Saiphas
11/10/2018 08:24 AMPosted by
Pellex
My point, though, is that a Horde player saying "I support Sylvanas" doesn't necessarily translate to "I love murdering Night Elf babies!"
(And for the record, I don't exactly support her, but I don't support Saurfang's rebellion either. I hate both options.)
The problem is Pellex, that for some Alliance players the net result is the same, even if the motivation is different. It can create a deep abiding resentment of horde players. Because from the Alliance perspective it comes across as wanting to have one’s cake and eat it too, to the explicit expense of the Alliance.
Okay, but I don't know what to do about it. The flip side is that if you guys get your wish and get to kill Sylvanas for purples month after month while crowing about how satisfied you are, that will create a deep abiding resentment of Alliance players on the part of Horde players, probably including me. It will come across as us having to pay with our faction pride for a crime most of us never wanted to commit in the first place.
I hate this.
11/10/2018 08:28 AMPosted by
Saiphas
The problem is Pellex, that for some Alliance players the net result is the same, even if the motivation is different. It can create a deep abiding resentment of horde players. Because from the Alliance perspective it comes across as wanting to have one’s cake and eat it too, to the explicit expense of the Alliance.
But doesn't that strike you as terribly unfair? "We've written the story so that the only way one side feels satisfied is if the Horde has to participate in undermining and deposing or killing their Warchief, again." We have our frustrations with the story as well - the Alliance want wins, AND they want none of the moral baggage that comes with the Horde's victories. That doesn't entitle us to say "The only way this story can be resolved to our satisfaction is for X to happen to the Alliance."
Blizzard has intentionally created a division within the Horde, and now players who dislike that division are being attacked from both sides AND by Blizzard itself.
First time the Pellex/Jellex thing has received a legitimate double-take from me.
That was a trip.
@Kazala, yes it’s idiotic, it’s also very human. It is, to repeat my mantra, why i hate the faction war. Because human responses to this create adversariel cleaveges in the community.
Pellex, and absolutely agreed this sucks, see my mantra about the faction war.
@Jellex, I think I’ve been on record enough times I’d hope you know my position on these things :P