IMO mythic raiding addition was a bad move. I think heroic is more than enough.
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No, it wouldnât fix it entirely but it would make it easier especially for guilds who have trouble getting that 20 constantly.
One of the hardest things I seen pugging with my shaman over the last two expansions in mythic raiding was seeing a mythic guild trying to get 1-3 people to commit their weekly mythic ID for progression or just 1-2 boss kills later on in raid.
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Mythic is Heroic. They just changed the names after 5.4 when they made âflexâ (which had been its own thing) apply to all the difficulties.
EXCEPT one. Which needs to be corrected. Make Mythic (formerly Heroic) flex scale, too.
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I run with a heroic guild that would go into mythic and likely get midway through each tier if the roster boss wasnât tougher then the early encounters. Making mythic flex even if later in the tier would be an improvement for groups like mine since it would add a few more weeks of prog at least after aotc where in our case we just start doing weekly full clears then achievement night then interest dies until next patch and any hope of doing mythic with 20 people disappears after a few weeks of people migrating to other games.
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The whole thread is about making Mythic scale from 10 to 30 players like all the other difficulties, so you wouldnât need precisely (no more, no less) 20.
Problem is youâre gonna be creating an even more fixed meta which will exclude a lot of classes, and that class might be the one youâre playing and wonât get to âplay with friends, pug at allâ
No, we wouldnât be doing that at all.
Once you get out of crazy pug-ville, and get into guild progression raiding, people stop being so psycho and let people play what they want.
This isnât even a hypothetical, weâve seen Heroic bosses (Sark is a good example) where the scaling is bad at launch and theyâre theoretically easier with fewer people. When we did Heroic Sark, we made it harder for ourselves by bringing everybody in the guild.
We didnât care. We didnât trim down to ten or fifteen people, we brought everyone. Why? Because weâre friends and we want to play together.
Thatâs the whole point of playing the game.
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Yes, it is but it is highly unlikely they will make it flex in the near future. At the very least they could change the ID lockouts much quicker or make that decision quicker. Hell it took multiple expansions for Blizzard to admit that flex made it more difficult for them to balance things. Not that I entirely believe them on that account though.
I have to preface this with this is just my opinion and own experience, not speaking for others. But if a developer wants to know what drives me, this is my honest self opinion.
Changing the raid sizing wonât fix the issues.
Itâs that for a lot of people itâs not worth it to commit to risking social interaction with people over lockouts. The way I want to raid is incompatible with lockouts entirely.
Iâve recommended on my other forum toon countless times to switch over to depreciating returns whereby ilvl itself is capped rather than gear drops. Unlock the ability for drops of higher ilvls on a week by week basis. Let people go into mythics and heroics on day 1 but cap it at lfr ilvl regardless of hardness, and raise it by 3 ilvls every week.
Being behind because of loot drop throttling just moved me off DF. If you want me doing ilvl chase youâd need to hold my attention with drops even if horizontal upgrades.
The more important part that gets back closer to raiding overall is that I actually prefer pugs, which is incompatible with the lockout system overall. People donât want to âwasteâ their lockouts with randoms, conversely I donât want to feel the need to social manipulate people to prog content. I would only be able to keep guilds social only or for raiding only after I feel comfortable doing raids in pugs.
Maybe Iâm the odd man out in that Iâd prefer playing with randoms to learn and only join a guild after mastering it.
This has been a problem for multiple expansions now though. They keep bandaiding, but we need an actual fix. I completely agree with what you said about the difficulty of pugging people into progession nights to get 20, especially when itâs your second raid night, so I would be fine with the lockout change if they also committed to changing raid sizes. It might take longer/be more difficult, but that is all the more reason to start now.
There is a reason that weâve been bleeding mythic raiding guilds even as the race for world first has gotten more popular, and thatâs because mythic raiding has this giant barrier to entry, and to being able to continue to raid, above and beyond the actual difficulty. And this barrier is not fun in the least, people feel left out and raid/guild leaders are put in a terrible place. It gets to you, and people just donât want to deal with it anymore, even if they enjoy the actual content.
I think itâs macroscopically a lockout issue and scrapping it and replacing it with something else might be warranted at this point.
Yes this means touching 2 decade old systems and starting from the ground up.
Back when I did mythic raiding (no CEs and usually ended up X-1/X since last bosses tend to break groups) people do actually fight for the bench on reclear or farm if you arenât extending. People get their loot funnel from bosses no one on main roster needs gear from and other people get to go do laundry or whatever.
Mhmmm.
Itâs pretty outdated. Just let people play the game and if they donât want 10 man mythic then make it 12 or something, if they canât do a complete range at least expand it.
It would also theoretically make extending less punishing as only the extender would be locked from say boss 1-5. Obviously that wouldnât matter this tier since reclearing was almost always a trap since you got 441+ from heroic/m+ and gear wasnât an âissueâ.
Yeah this one just makes sense these days. I know what folks are gonna say â but that means weâd just farm everything we need and stop! Yeah, it does mean that. I think itâs perfectly okay to have a time limit (a MUCH shorter one than what we currently have) to the duration of a raid. Let folks branch out, bring some different characters, do other content, play other games. Itâs just all a bit too sweaty for the overwhelming majority of the playerbase that isnât getting CE or even doing mythic at all in most cases.
Iâve seen the no lockouts on loot work elsewhere. The reality is the raids take long enough that even without the lockouts people still have time limits on how much they can play in a week and by the same token advance. This does mean the gigasweats are probably going to kill themselves in the first couple weeks but most folks with responsibilities arenât going to do that. The worst they might do is farm some easier bosses before they move on. In those cases you just made raiding more accessible too â they can âbuildâ up to doing those later encounters in a shorter period of time, and that should actually draw some more people in. Or maybe they just decide to do the first 4 and call it good, then farm those. Neither seems like a bad thing to me.
The way other games handle this is to have some sort of weekly chest reward, and subsequent runs of the place are just what drops is what drops. You can run them over and over, and eventually get what you want but it may take a while similar to how it is here. Another possibility is currencies on subsequent kills. I honestly really like the currency idea. It still keeps the possibility of slowing gearing down a bit, but on the flip side it makes it feel like youâre actually getting something out of it.
The other bit here I find weird in WoW is the most mindless/least dangerous stuff is the most profitable in terms of gold generation whereas in other games doing the hard dungeons, farming content where there is actually danger of death, etc rewards either items or loot (like patterns) that sell really well even in infinite farm situations. ESO comes to mind as one example. Even if you have every piece of loot from a place, you can keep farming it for mats to improve the items you want to use. Itâs a wonderful system that keeps people coming back even to old content.
It should simply scale something like 18-22 people. That shouldnât be horribly hard to balance and allows the vast majority of guilds the flexibility they need. Itâs stupid to have to have people showing up ready every night and not be able to play (since generally youâd want a core group that gets gear and learns fights).
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Extend Syndrome is another problem, yes.
Mythic raiding just has a lot of problems at this point, because itâs the only legacy system from launch thatâs pretty much intact and has never been modernized. (Itâs the original raiding form. Every other raid difficulty added since has been added as an easier version slotted below whatâs currently available.)
Things to fix about Mythic:
- Flex scaling from 10-30 (or maybe 15-30 if 10 is just deemed unworkable)
- Individual boss skips after youâve killed them once. No more âskipsâ where you still have to kill 5 bosses to get to the one you want. (Weâve regressed on skips. HFC/BRF were way better than todayâs skips.)
- Double or triple the loot drop rate to bring it in line with M+ on a per-person basis.
- Eliminate weekly loot lockouts to bring it in line with M+.
- No more 14-minute final boss fights, please.
Thereâs a lot of work to be done.
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This is a cool idea, make the scaling a smaller window than 10-30 if it makes balancing the encounters easier. 16-24 is very flexible still and would probably be a lot easier to balance than allowing 10-30. Obviously 10-30 is more flexible for players but I know Iâd be willing to compromise in order to get some flexibility instead of none.
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Iâd add that getting rid of the res runs would go a long way to making it more accessible. Drop dead folks at the edge of the arena after combat ends like you get in FFXIV. I canât really see a purpose to death runs anymore its just so archaic and is a pure time waster.
I like the idea of flex personally but itâs for selfish reasons. Iâm mostly a tank player. My current tank is my bear, and for the most part theyâve hit a gear plateau from the content Iâm able to participate in at 440 ilvl. I can push a bit further with more crests of course. Mythic raiding is something Iâve done a little in the past (and heroic, when it was the top end), but couldnât currently do as tank just due to a lack of raid slots. Allowing for some flex raids and small raid sizes increases the need for tanks, and opens up some possibilities for me.
Since everybody just soulstones a healer for wipe recovery, I would imagine itâs not even on Blizzardâs radar.
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