The Impact of Mythic Raid design on Guild Community

Mythic Raiding is currently built around a firm 20-person raid size, with the goal of making it easier to balance raid fights. This works from a purely technical perspective, but is actively harmful in terms of impact on people and communities. I’m not against the size requirement for a period of time, as it does benefit things such as the Race for World First, which I believe is actively good for the game, but there is a time at which I believe the trade off is no longer worth it. I believe it would be much better for the raiding community if at some point (perhaps when the hall of fame is filled) that these size requirements were relaxed.

Raid teams and guilds are communities full of people, that have friendships, lives, and dreams. Guilds and raid teams consist of people who want to play together, and these groups come in various sizes. Currently, unless your group of people that plays together has at least 20 people, you are unable to continue progressing after a certain point. There is a point for many guilds at which they have heroic on farm and they start to blow through it. Without being able to go into mythic, they hit a wall and are left without anything to work towards together. Relaxing mythic raid size requirements would allow many more people to experience these fights, and provide a way for them to continue to play together.

On the flip side of things, sometimes you have groups that consist of more than 20 people. If this is the case, if you want to continue to progress, to continue to play, you have to tell people that they cannot play with you. Over the years, I’ve tried different ways to rotate people and keep them feeling involved, but none of them work for long. People feel excluded, people feel like they are missing out, people are made to feel like they are not good enough. Furthermore, if someone wants to come back and play with their friends, or you make a new friend, if you want to invite them to your raid group, they are replacing someone else. This is terrible when it comes to building a sense of community.

There are so many community and leadership related issues with having a 20 person requirement, and I don’t see a single positive when it comes to people or quality of life. Whenever I make a post on raid size, I hear people worry about people aiming for specific sizes for specific fights in order to make it easier, but this really doesn’t happen in heroic outside of maybe certain pugs. Even heroic pugs generally have a size that is “easiest” and just run that for the entire night. Most guilds, most communities, will not adjust their raid sizes and leave people out if mythic is allowed to flex- especially after the point in time at which the hall of fame is filled. Instead, guilds will have the flexibility to play with the people they want to play with.

This also allows groups to continue to raid if people are sick, or go on vacation, or have to take a night off for business. It would mean that you don’t waste an entire night of 18 people’s time, because someone’s kid got sick. It allows you to promise a person that they are still welcome back after they take a mental health break, because there are no “slots” to worry about. It would allow people to invite their friends to play with you without worrying about someone being replaced. It would allow guilds to continue to play if people want to take a break, rather than everyone having to stop.

From a community perspective, from a fun perspective, there is no benefit to a 20-person requirement for Mythic. Please Blizzard, I’m begging you, consider the impacts on your players and their communities and allow Mythic to flex after the hall of fame is full.

14 Likes

Mythic should be flex, no question.

Irrelevant. Move the RWF to a tournament server like MDI & AWC, and enforce a strict 20-man rule there. Make all live servers flex like all the other difficulties.

This isn’t a “sometimes”. EVERY Mythic progression guild has more than 20 people. And it sucks, because you’re always having to tell somebody “you can’t play tonight”.

Have Mythic scale from 10 to 30 like all other difficulties. It’s long overdue.

9 Likes

The 20 man requirement and ID lockout put an insane amount of unnecessary strain on guild leaders on top of just the poor experience it creates for raiders.

Def way overdue for a change.

12 Likes

So much naivety in the OP.

If they made Mythic flex, guilds would just bench a bunch of people to hit the magic # that makes the fight its easiest.

Also, once guilds finish the raid, many of the people on the roster want to sit out every now and then. People will fight for the bench once you’ve been farming for a month or so.

A fixed # is needed for challenging raiding. The question is what should that # be.

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I don’t care if other people want to bench their friends. I just want to play with my friends.

10 Likes

At minimum the ID lockout needs kicked to the curb.

Something needs to change. All it does now is make it a 20 hour a week job for a handful of people per guild, and a ton of that isn’t even playing the game.

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Part of the problem stems from Heroic being tuned so low that pugging a full clear week 1 was very reasonable this tier, unlike the previous ~4+.

Gearing was also faster (for most), so the natural difficulty nerf through gear creep was shorter.

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Aberrus was a mess, the devs completely botched it. From the shenanigans with Zskarn, where the dev made it harder right after his guild killed it, and then changed it 3 more times after that, to them “accidentally” nerfing Mythic Sark.

I would never base anything off of the clown show that has been Aberrus.

(Oh and don’t forget those few hours a few weeks ago where Zskarn forgot how to use any of his mechanics, and a bunch of guilds just walked in and 1-shot him and started extending after that.)

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It was better when he had normal and heroic. Same with dungeons, dungeons need dungeon sets back as well. It gave us a reason to farm them plus crafting recipes and gathering nodes in the dungeons as well. Wrath killed a lot of that. Normal should=Mythics for dungeons and Heroic should = Mythic 15+ for dungeons.

Raids, eh I do not know, Blizzard has never been able to balance raids between the smaller 10 man and the usually easier 25 man groups way back when, now that we have flex…it would get complicated but less complicated than having mythic. Hardmode raids aka Ulduar was great for its time, maybe they should improve on that.

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It is definitely bad for the health of the game.

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I approve of this message! Blizzard needs to increase the group size to 6 players and have raids just be 12 man.

I think you are underestimating the amount of guilds that don’t care about this type of stuff. Many of us just want to do the hardest raid content with our friends, and if bringing one or two more makes the encounter harder then oh well it’s a little harder.

The top guilds are always going to min/max to the fullest, but that’s not always reflective of the general player base (although many optimizations do trickle down to groups that don’t even need them)

5 Likes

They could make things immediately easier by changing the ID lockout. The reasons for it are long outdated and mostly irrelevant.

3 Likes

Getting rid of the raid ID is just to make pugging easier, right? Very separate issue from fixed raid size.

1 Like

The raid lockout change would be a similar bandaid to allowing cross faction raiding. It wouldn’t be a bad thing in terms of convenience, especially for pugging or allowing you to being in a friend from another guild to make up numbers, but it also doesn’t address any of the underlying community issues. You still wouldn’t be able to bring all your friends, still would be leery of inviting people to play with you, still have all the issues from my original post. From a guild perspective I don’t mind the lockout, but I’m totally open to it being abolished to help out the more independent players- however it would need to be in addition to flexibility with raid size, not as a solution.

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One lockout I’m totally in favor of getting rid of is the weekly one. Raiding already drops a pathetic amount of gear per person, the once-per-week restriction is just a kick in the nuts on top of that. In an age where we can farm unlimited quantities of gear (and crests, and primal infusions, and I’m sure whatever’s coming next season) from unlimited M+ runs, the weekly raid lockout is a dinosaur that needs to be buried.

4 Likes

Removing raid ID lockouts allows guilds that are missing 1-2 people a possibility of actually doing pulls by bringing in 1-2 pugs.

Possibly even pugs who have experience or maybe even have killed that boss before.

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Oh, so it’s to hire ringers? Hm.

Nothing about hiring anyone, just letting people play the game without arbitrary restrictions that exist nowhere else except 1 difficulty of a raid.

Flex, loot IDs, and cross realm. Just make it like heroic with maybe a tighter flex (18-22? 20-25?)

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It would also help raids by allowing alts easier access and also more geared toons that might be leery of joining an ID with multiple kills.

It’s x100 times easier to join a fresh group than get someone to commit their weekly mythic ID for a single kill or more later on. Hell just for progression sometimes is next to impossible.

1 Like