The problem is that isn’t a goal that anyone aside from the Forsaken can get behind. A group like the Forsaken that looks out for its own interests exclusively to the detriment of all others is not a group that can adequately represent anyone but itself.
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Right, because in Vanilla the Horde (especially the Forsaken) storytelling was a massive afterthought; which is why so much effort was put into trying to resolve that in the Cata leveling experience. And the BLIGHT was a weapon that was specifically designed to not only work on the living, but especially the Scourge. Which is why it was used at the Wrath Gate on Arthas. The Forsaken’s ideology only changed into Scourge-lite AFTER WotLK, when Blizz had to hit them (or specifically Sylvanas) with a new story hook.
Its not that the Forsaken or BEs lacked relevance to the LK storyline. Its that Blizzard did not allow them to act on that relevance; and rather used the prior as a cheap method to spark up the Faction Conflict story thread again instead. And honestly, just looking at the dialogue (and scenario) itself, I would wager that Jaina’s version of the HoR in WotLK is more likely the canon one. Because it always felt weird to have Sylvanas trying to tear down giant Magically Created walls. As well as Jaina’s variant of that scenario involving pretty important (albeit minor) musing from Uther if I recall. So … Sylvie probably didn’t get to play a part in the downfall of Arthas; and like EoN suggested … merely arrived to see the remains of his defeat.
Like I said. DENIED relevance, rather than LACK of it.
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Because the leaders you sent to the maw are both melee. Casters make good stories. Portals and healing domes save lives
So, then what happens with them? Because I get the feeling there’s an unsaid implication that because the forsaken were just too plain evil in the past, they’re effectively not allowed to have any sort of positive representation in a theme they’re directly tied to. 
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Again, this is not what happened in Vanilla questing. Vanilla Forsaken questing was as fleshed out as anyone elses questing, it just was not an anti-Scourge narrative. It was an anti-human narrative before all else. Their lack of anti-Scourge relevance in WotLK is frankly a natural extension of that.
You can argue that this is a problem with the way the Forsaken were written and I would largely agree, but it’s a problem with the way the Forsaken are written that has been with them since their inception and as such is hardcoded into the faction.
Alliance ICC is almost certainly the canon one from what we’ve seen, especially over the past few expansions where it’s made explicit that Saurfang interacted with Varian and in Shadowlands, where there is extra dialogue between Calia, Jaina, and Taelia where Jaina straight up says that she fought Arthas at Icecrown Citadel.
Well, making them not evil is a good start, and that seems to be the intent with the post-BfA Calia stuff. That raises a bunch of other questions, particularly in regards to their continuing involvement with the Horde, but progress is progress.
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Feels way too late to convincingly turn that boat around, in my opinion. The race and faction is going to be former-WW2 axis at best from now on. It’s not like the beginning of WC3 where you could hand-wave some of the orcs away as just being descendants, and the rest of them not actually having been a part of the first two games.
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I’d agree if it weren’t for the fact that its a problem with the way the Horde is written. Because after all, it wasn’t just the Forsaken that were denied access to their primary story hook in WotLK. Revenge against Arthas. The BEs had no relevance in either the downfall of Kel’thuzad or Arthas, despite their massive relevance in the Fall of Quel’thalas. BOTH Horde races that had immense story relevance to the fate of Arthas were not allowed ANY relevance in the downfall of Arthas. And this is not just a them problem. You see it constantly with how Blizz has handled the MU Orcs (in BC and Legion). And rather default the MU Orc’s content essentially being "killing other Orcs, most of whom have very little relevance to the actual MU Horde storyline. Like the Dark and Iron Hordes).
And I actually do agree with this, even if it is slightly frustrating. In terms of just what makes sense more on a storytelling level, the Alliance side of events is far more likely to be the canon outcome. Especially with, as you said, Varian’s opinions on Saurfang. Which, as a tangent, is why I DO hope Blizz capitalizes on Saurfang’s sacrifice being a better foundation for the Horde moving forward than either Grom or Doomhammer. As the prior two mostly operated through “Redemption Through Death”, while Saurfang openly admits his death wont redeem him; and rather he just wants to give the next generation a chance at the honor he came to believe his own generation was never worthy of. Which is far more primal, simple, and paternal. It genuinely good.
Between the Theme of Saurfang’s “the Negotiation” dialogue (which boils down to, the people of the Horde CAN’T make up for the past. All they can do is accept it, learn from it, and try to do better" (a general shift from Thrall’s “not all monsters” theme); and Velonara’s “we will no longer be slaves to this torment” … there is “something” of value here for future Horde and Forsaken storytelling. But Blizz has to be willing to invest in it. Which means they need to be willing to sacrifice their Forced Proactive Plot-Device faction vision of the Horde.
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As far as WotLK is concerned, I don’t think that there was ever really much chance of the Horde featuring prominently at all, because it was the Arthas Menethil expansion, featuring Arthas Menethil, the former Paladin and once-Prince of Lordaeron and Champion of the Alliance.
The entire thing was always going to be about Arthas’ rise and fall and that was pretty much exclusively an Alliance matter.
And Blizzard did this because it was overwhelmingly what the playerbase wanted on both factions.
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I still don’t get why you consistently downplay the forsakens’ relationship with Arthas as whether or not they’re important enough to feature prominently. If you consider his being the former prince of Lordaeron important to his character, then the actual people of Lordaeron matter just as much.
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Yes, total irrelevancy in an expac that involved heavily the stories of two of our Core Races by that time, so that Blizz could settup a gimmick despot for future expacs and villains was totally what the Horde playerbase wanted.
Just like in Legion. Where rather than having even a single token MU Orc (like Eitrigg, who would have been a great choice as the Blood Brother of Tyrion and one of those most opposed to the MoP attack on Theramore) being on the front lines against KJ (who perverted their health and faith, turned them into monsters, and destroyed their world) … what we REALLY wanted was to watch the Alliance and Alliance Neutral heroes spit or ignore us while our only content was Blizz setting up another gimmick despot for future expacs and villains.
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It’s because “people of Lordaeron” never really prominently featured in the Forsaken’s identity, certainly not before Cataclysm. That they overwhelmingly spent most of their time attacking and plotting to wipe out what remained of the Kingdom of Lordaeron didn’t help them much in that regard either.
It was. I was there. I think that you are severely underestimating the borderline mythical quality that Arthas had taken on among the playerbase going into WotLK, Horde included. Blizzard delivered exactly what everyone wanted at the time.
It remains the most popular World of Warcraft expansion ever made even now, so people who are retroactively disappointed in it still constitute a minority.
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I think it’s because you made it sound like people on both factions wanted the horde to be ignored in favor of Arthas only being represented through Tirion and what’s-his-face from the Ebon Blade, and it’s weird to think that horde players would specifically want a lack of connection to the expansion villain.
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I would assume Ain interprets this this way because he has repeatedly implied the only possible reason a person would play Horde is to be an edgy contrarian memelord to the Alliance. Thus, by suggesting such, he subtly implies (whether he means to or not) that Horde players are just not as invested in the story as Alliance ones. Otherwise we’d be playing Alliance. So he conflaits the very positive responses to gameplay, innovation, class balancing, raid progression, and lots of quality of life improvements of WotLK … with “The Horde being totally cool with having their entire story relevance they should have had written out”.
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It had nothing to do with “people wanted the Horde to be ignored.” It was “people wanted Arthas Arthas Arthas” and the most compelling element of his story was that of his fall, which necessarily involved the Alliance pretty much exclusively. They theoretically could have gotten more Horde involvement by playing up Ner’zhul, but people didn’t want that. They wanted Arthas.
No, I’m basing this on my own experiences as a long-standing veteran of the ancient forum wars that I was heavily involved in going into and during WotLK. You can believe me, or you can disbelieve me, but it’s genuinely what I remember.
In terms of the Horde’s involvement with Arthas, the angle that they did via the Forsaken was actually pretty highly disputed at the time. Because of the way that they were written in vanilla, the notion that the Forsaken identified with their former lives in any way, shape, or form was still a hotly contested topic at the time and the general consensus was that they didn’t. The idea that they did was a minority position that didn’t become the dominant one until Cataclysm when the Forsaken were written in large part to answer that very question.
And nobody wanted them to play up the Blood Elf angle because BC had just ended and everyone was sick of Blood Elves.
I’m not making a judgement as to whether or not all the above is good or bad, I’m just explaining how things were at the time and why things ended up the way they did.
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This is only true up until the point where a substantial portion of those alliance victims then turned around to join the horde, due to them being zombies and all. From that point onward, it became a shared backstory.
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Again, this was not the consensus at the time due to the way that the Forsaken had been written in vanilla.
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It’s still their backstory, whether the in-game characters chose to ignore it or not. And I think the fact that the forsaken even showed up at all pre-Wrathgate should have been enough to show that they still had a grudge against Arthas.
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They showed up to perfect their plague and to kill Scarlet Onslaught. Nominally the Plague was indeed for the Scourge, but we all know how that turned out.
And it wasn’t a surprise either because the Forsaken had been saying to player characters since the start “We are going to create a plague and use it to wipe out life.” During plague testing in Dragonblight they even test it on the Scourge and the NPC you turn it into laments that in testing it on the Scourge they had inadvertently assisted the Alliance at Wintergarde.
You remember the 1st Legion? The soldiers that Arthas brought with him to Northrend that remained as ghosts haunting the beach in Dragonblight? Alliance quests involved an elaborate re-enactment of the Warcraft 3 mission, communication with the ghosts, and ultimately helping them realize what had happened and move on.
Forsaken questing in the area involved a quest to kill them because they were in the way and to collect ectoplasm to help with plague development. When you turned it in the Forsaken questgiver said:
This will do nicely, . Did those pathetic whelps put up a fight or did they just shower you with ghostly tears of sorrow?
Ah, they get so emotional…
Whatever you think that the Forsaken are now, they were not that in Vanilla, BC, and WotLK. The shift in their writing between WotLK and Cataclysm was actually really jarring in that regard, because they suddenly apparently cared about their former lives when one expansion earlier they felt the exact opposite.
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Do people just forget that Horde aren’t defined by being bloodthirsty, war craving, monsters?
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Lol wat?
Bro, it’s legit 2-2 at most. There’s nothing Alliance-like about Revendreth nor Maldraxxus aside from, like, Mograine in Maldraxxus and Revendreth doesn’t even feature an Alliance character.
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