100 years is not nothing in absolute terms, and certainly not for an Orc, whose logic we’re examining here.
Now, is it racist to point out currently existing issues and prejudices? No, but it IS racist to presume that those things are endemic to a person’s thinking to the point that they cannot be changed due to the fact that they are of a certain race.
Which is what Sylvanas is doing with her argumentation - argumentation that Saurfang agreed with.
The only time the Horde was supposed to even consider Stormheim was Saurfang in WoT. It wasn’t even allowed to be mentioned by the Horde outside of that. Because why allow the Horde motives at all … Its also why the just defaulted to Evil Race tropes to justify SI:7’s actions in Silithus.
And no, I don’t expect Genn to “get over it”. Nor Rogers. I don’t expect them to just “accept it”. But I do expect there to be consequences from the greater Alliance for such a major political incident. Which is why ANDUIN is the target of Saurfang’s tipping point to being susceptible to Sylvie’s arguments. He NEVER calls into question Genn or Tyrande’s motives for wanting to restart the conflict. He NEVER invalidates them. Recognizing the Alliance has justified reasons to want to attack the Horde does not equate to the Horde just enabling those attacks. Nor should it. But that would be “nuance”, we can’t have that in a Black and White setting.
Can you show me where Tyrande is said to have wanted to restart the conflict? The most I have is that she (stupidly) sent forces down to Silithus.
You seem to be tying a direct “Tyrande deserved it” line here - I’d like to see it.
And why shouldn’t there be consequnces for what the Horde did in cataclysm? Because of a treaty containing nothing? You can’t decry one thing as bad writing, and then pretend that something just as bad or worse is fine. There should have been sanctions against the Forsaken after cataclysm, and relinquishing the territories that they took. Neither happened. Nothing happened. So why do you act like Stormheim, which was nothing compared to waht went down in cataclysm, is such a whitewashing moment, when the Horde got whitewashed so hard after mop? Why do you get stuck up on Stormheim, and completely ignore all the reasons why it happened?
Because ultimately, it was on the Horde to mend what they broke, and that hasn’t changed, even after ten years and five expansions. Now more than ever.
It absolutely does. Cause and effect. You can’t hurt someone, and then act shocked when they seek retaliation.
I’m generally of the “The WoT was about hitting the Alliance, not the Night elves as a whole” camp, but Tyrande was sheltering Genn and his troops, which had literally just come back from committing a terroristic act against the Horde. If she was against the Alliance being stupidly hostile against the Horde during the most idiotic period of history to be doing so, she had a weird way of showing it.
The troops that hit Sylvanas were the 7th Legion and both Genn and Rogers was in Stormwind at the time.
So this headcanon is nonsensical.
I seem to remember the majority of forces there being Worgen…
And yet if I brought up what the alliance had done in cataclysm or before that there’d be a billion excuses why unleashing convicts on a civillian population and firebombing them, or literally massacring a peaceful village was actually really morally good, because you’re a blueside cheerleader and nothing more.
Huh? Genn and Rogers were aboard the Skyfire when they attacked the Forsaken Fleet at Stormheim. Unless you are referencing something else?
It was the 7th legion and all the races were involved.
This is racial logic once again. So let’s recap.
Genn is in Stormwind, however, the Night Elves play host to the Gilnean refugees.
But Genn is a Worgen, and because he is a Worgen, the Gilnean refugees in Darnassus make Darnassus fair game for attack - because those refugees are worgen.
You’re not going to see me defend Taurajo. just don’t pretend it’s on the scale of either Gilneas, Southshore or gods forbid Teldrassil, and we are good.
You know whats ALSO “racial logic”?
The Goblins are always after profit, they can’t be trusted with Azerite? But we can. The Horde will do something awful with Azerite, because of Sylvanas (a woman, who while shifty, had only ever really attacked the Alliance once … under Garrosh’s orders publically)? But we can. The Horde will make weapons out of Azerite and that’s bad. We’ll also make weapons out of Azerite in response, but thats good. Though … admittedly … it does help that Blizz revels in Good Race/Bad Race tropes to allow for that line of reasoning.
Remember, historical precedence is ONLY valid if its applied to Horde racial stereotypes.
They’re literally the same thing. Firebombing a civillian population whose military garrison was away.
The only difference was in size, and the fact that the plan for Camp T wasn’t sprung on anyone. Burning it down was the gameplan that Varian and Jaina were in on. The Alliance don’t recoil in horror when it happens either, they literally march on Mulgore to do the same thing again…
No they’re not. Please don’t try and pretend that the burning of teldrassil and camp taurajo was the same. I’m tired, and I really don’t don’t have the energy for that kind of nonsense. I just don’t.
This is whataboutism, especially when you’re throwing this up to defend a premeditated genocide.
Sigh … if there is one thing this thread has reinforced for me. Its that Alliance players would flip their lids if Blizz were ever to truly bring back even post-Cata levels of Faction nuance within the Alliance. And that calls to “take the gloves off” are so laced with “keeping our hands clean”, that its all about reinforcing the ALL POWERFUL element to the ALL GOOD aspect of the Blue Faction. If you can’t be flawless, pure, and perfect all the time … what is even the point I suppose? The capacity for tangible flaws = evil in this setting after all.
Not if there some actual repercussions for what the Horde did for once, which didn’t happen in any way, shape or form after mop. Mark my words, and remember them.
And this is a distraction. We’re not talking about that. We’re talking about the insufficiency of Stormheim as a reason for what took place, and about the reasons that were actually offered for it taking place.
Don’t also act as though you’re different. You’ve been recoiling at having the Horde cast in this manner, which is certainly understandable, and defensible. Blizzard shouldn’t have done what it did to the Horde’s characterization. The simple point I am making to you is that they have done so, that it is of an extreme magnitude, and that something must be done to resolve it.
Repercussions … for the Horde. But having tangible flaws is all about having the capacity to take actions that will have repercussions for YOU. Morg, despite claiming otherwise, your demands to “get back at the Horde” and “reassert your dominance” are never about what negatives could come to the Alliance for that sort of power-fantasy. Because the expectation is, there wont be. Because its only fair you get those clean wins … no price to be paid, no strings attached. The type of wins you’ve convinced yourself the Horde got in MoP and BfA (because you don’t value what the Horde lost in either of those stories enough to consider those actual losses).
And that’s fine. I’m fine with the Worgen making choices that may very well come back to haunt them, because they have never been allowed to. They should have taken back Gilneas in mop, to hell with what any treaty said. They should have killed the Forsaken there and put their skulls up along the Greymane wall. So what if there were repercussions after that? It would have been more interesting, and infinitely more satisfying, than what we got. The only good thing the Worgen has gotten in ten years, is the cinematic with Genn against Sylvanas, and a new model.