The Haranir suck - That's their point

The whole point of the Haranir is that a tradition they’ve held on to for tradition’s sake is revealed to be bad.

    It is forbidden to bring outsiders to Harandar! Orweyna broke our laws by going to the surface and letting your world know about us. And now this?
    Ter'kova say: How many of our sacred traditions have you broken, child?
    Ran'hune says: Inviting those outsiders here--
    Ran'hune says: --profaning this sacred place with their presence
    Ruia says: You have forgotten the value of tradition, Orweyna. Go to the Den of Echoes, and remind yourself of what it means to be haranir.
    Orweyna has broken our laws and customs. The Den of Echoes will teach you about our ways, and challenge you to prove yourself.

    If you return, it will mean Aln’hara has granted you leave to stay. I do not expect to see you again.

    There is one trial yet remaining.

    If you survive, the goddess’ blessing will be upon you, and the council will not be able to deny your presence here.

    Descend now into the earth and follow in our ancestors’ footsteps.


    Hagar says: The goddess was gone when they arrived.
    Hagar says: Without her, the land was falling apart.
    Hagar says: After all the trials, and journeys, we hoped to find purpose.
    Hagar says: Instead we found discord and death.
    Hagar says: We blamed the missing goddess.
    Hagar says: We blamed the land.
    Hagar says: We blamed each other.
    Hagar says: The goddess' absence was not a tragedy,
    Hagar says: but a trial--
    Hagar says: One we failed.
    Hagar says: When at last we found our way,
    Hagar says: the elders feared what would happen if we returned to the surface.
    Hagar says: So...
    Hagar says: They forbade it.

This shame was the whole reason the Haranir’s founders imposed cultural isolation onto their people for all time, masking it as valuing tradition to be something the Haranir to take pride to hide from them that truth that their founders believed them too dangerous to be allowed back up to the surface.

And this guy that everyone is annoyed by?

    You stand before Ruia, Rootwarden of Shaladrassil. For eighty-five years I have stood vigil over its cursed roots, just as my mentor stood before his return to the earth.
      Didn’t Shaladrassil fall to the Nightmare?
    <Ruia scoffs derisively.>

    Do your people lament the fall of the sky when it rains?

    Sometimes, there are more roots.

    Sometimes, there are fewer. Sometimes they change in shape or in temperament. But always, they reach for the Cradle. Why would we care what occurs in the world above, so long as the roots of Harandar remain whole?

    Do you have any other foolish questions? Or are you merely attempting to forestall your judgment?

He’s meant to be an annoying jerk you hate, because you’re going to kill him as a dungeon boss any way.

In the end it is meant for the Haranir to move on from this tradition:

    When Shaladrassil became corrupted we shared its story with our young, yet we did not come to the great tree’s aid.

    My people became blind to the world, shrouded in our beliefs, locking everyone out, letting the world that surrounds us burn in countless perils.

    Coming here has shown me that, in some ways, we have failed the goddess. But it is not too late. It is never too late.

    Being here, seeing the tree, I now understand. The tree is more than the sum of its roots. This is true for us as individuals, as well as for our people.

    We are part of this world, and the goddess would have wanted us to see her glory.

    The isolation of our people should be as yesterday’s breeze.

It seems some people take offense to others not liking the Haranir because of all the work that was put into the graphic design and art and music of Harandar and the Haranir. That’s well and good, but that’s an entirely different conversation and not having anything to do with people not liking the Haranir for parts of a culture that are not meant to be liked.

But that doesn’t give people a lot of reason to like the Haranir for their current lore, either.

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They’re a poorly conceived of race that was thematically overlapping so hard with an existing race that they tried to isolate them from said race with a convoluted mess of excuses. This feels like another one of those cases where the developer keeps trying to change something to stay ahead of player criticism, but it keeps making it worse.

Nearly everything about them on a purely artistic level is cool, though.

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Being so good at hiding that the Titans and the Wild Gods on Hyjal never noticed them, let alone anyone else after, is definitely a bizarre choice of an excuse for them always having been around, yeah.

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Once I power through their zone they can go back into hiding and they’ll receed from my mind like playable Nightborne.

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Can someone tell me why the sentinels or druids won’t shoot this weird looking trolls that’s hanging around their sacred trees without permission?

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Like the Titans and Wild Gods, they hid real good from the Night Elves.

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I see them. Can I throw them underground? :blush: :backhand_index_pointing_right: :backhand_index_pointing_left:

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One of the major things that bothers me about the Haranir is that they’re constantly using terminology from the surface world.

Maybe the writers didn’t want to put in the effort to create an entire lexicon for the Haranir to refer to things we’re familiar with, but it kind of takes me out when they use the proper names of the World Trees like: Nordrassil, Teldrassil, or Shaladrassil.

This is the second time I’ve seen you disparage the Nightborne, so perhaps they’ll recede like your hairline and remain partially present. :blush:

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Oh, the achievement ones? Well see the ones that leave Harandar are destined to be best friends with Shandris:

    Orwenya says: I stand with you!
    Shandris Feathermoon says: We stand back to back. For Azeroth!

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The Haranir and the Earthen’s message of breaking tradition is so tiring. For a moment during the WW it looked like there was going to be more subtlety. Steelvein/Merrix realizing he never broke his edict, he just misunderstood it was so refreshing. Then he goes on to reject all traditions to move the Earthen forward. And on top of that, we have the Haranir constantly badgering Orweyna about tradition. It sounds like we are getting even more of that in Midnight.

Why is it a hard concept to relay that sometimes it is our own faulty understanding of what is right that is the issue, rather than the objective concept being always wrong?

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The Haranir don’t break all their traditions. Just the isolationism one. They still like their coming of age paintings and whatnot.

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But the isolation is still kind of what defines them, right? I get it sounds like they keep their other customs, but the whole conversation seems to be framed as “old ways- ignorant” “new ways- best ways”. And the revelation that the tradition was a lie is another nail in the coffin.

From what you posted, it looks like they are being antagonistic to Orweyna. They could have had a legitimate dialogue about why isolation was important, but they had to make those holding on to tradition appear ignorant and wrong.

Yes, the ones that were wrong were traditionalist for the sake of tradition. They didn’t have a legitimate dialogue for why isolation was important because they didn’t have one and just espoused to the effect of “law is law.”

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seems to be some writers at blizz think all traditon is bad (prolyl impacted by them wanting to leave their mark and do own thign and not caring about toys/story they dint create and seieng as inferior)

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Yeah, that is what I mean. The Haranir point of view is like a strawman.

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Not really? This is a strawman:

To explain why this is a strawman, you ignore that they still value traditions, specifically the coming of age painting one where they literally figure out what they’re going to do with their lives is. Literally defining themselves.

I dunno why people are surprised in how this race end up a mess, they literally did this with dracthyr before.

The new team of writers - including damn Danuser - wanted to create new crap to put their mark on warcraft. But since wow is an already rich setting they have no option other than overlap.

The problem with the overlap is complete lack of care about old lore and this happens in different medias, not just games. Many tv shows and movies dont give a crap about source material and the writers/showrunners want to change the setting on their own view.

Dracthyr retcon the lore that DW was never able to mix the power of the dragonflights and create a new dumb humanoid dragon when we already had drakonids.

Now, the devs wanted their own “wood elves” and instead of using an actual wood elf(night elves), they tried to bank on avatar and the navi and made this wild elf

They dont know the setting, so how do they fix this in the game? They cant, thats why its a mess. They clearly are a edited night elf model like nightborne, and their characteristics clear show they are night elves who evolved in harandar due to the druidism and magic there.

But they wanted to have their cake and eat it, they wanted their new race to be so much more special than night elves and wanted to be older than everyone, but that create problems since Trolls were here before anyone else. Thus, you face multiple inconsistencies with how they could be hiding so much for that much time and no one noticing.

A good writer, and i dare say even a good dungeon master, would simple say that, Night elves after hearing the song went to a place with a portal that lead them to harandar, a special pocket dimension between the emerald dream and the elemental planes. There the night elves acquired animal traits from the magic of harandar.

This explain why they are feral and why no one, neither the titans or the wild gods found them.

Done, just replace the haranir models in that quest with night elf models and you fix this mess.

Im sure the haranir have a racial that is related to stealth, you know, to proper convey their expertise in hiding, like going invisible for a short while…

:dracthyr_lulmao:

Because they are weird looking elves, not trolls.

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How is it not a strawman you said it yourself "there arguement is just espoused to the effect of “law is law”?

You also said their major tradition is founded on a lie.
The whole race is set up to be wrong and Orweyna right.

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The Haranir really should have such a racial trait, yeah, one that makes their stealth harder to detect. Night Elves, after all, have a racial trait that lets them move faster while stealthed, after all.

Because it is only one tradition that is wrong, not the concept of traditions that is wrong.

And no, I said one of their traditions is founded on a lie. Not that all their traditions are founded on lies.

The whole race is not set up to be wrong. The same coming of age painting ritual that helps Orweyna found her purpose in following Azeroth’s voice to explore the surface also helped Amarakk find his purpose in giving up his ability to hear Azeroth’s voice for the greater good of protecting his home from lethal threats, a profession that Orweyna believes is wrong, but that she is wrong to find wrong.

The ones who are wrong (including Orweyna in the example above) are people who hold onto a way of life because it’s familiar when it is detrimental to do so, and refuse to let go of that familiarity out of a baseless belief that ways of life should be absolutes for the sake of familiarity.

The ones who are wrong don’t have anything to argue.

“Why do we do the coming of age rituals?” “Because it helps us process what paths our lives can take”

“Why are we isolationist?” “Because the elders said so.”

One tradition has a valid basis that can be explained. The other is upheld only on “tradition is tradition” which a baseless thing to try to enforce.

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I did make a correction after I typed it, I was referring to the isolation. It is one tradition, but a tradition that is a key piece to their mythos and core piece of their identity.

They want to make a narrative about why overcoming the Haranir tradition of isolationism is good, but the reason Orwyna is justified in breaking it is because her elders lied and are like “follow us or else”. That is a strawman.

Orwyna’s crime is challenging authority, the authority of her elders.

Instead of creating a compelling story and a hard-fought victory for the protagonist they set up easy wins by making her opponents ignorant, liars, and fools.

That is also how Arator gets his morality justified because Turalyon and Lor’themar are painted as too stupid/ignorant to properly challenge him.

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