Was going to say book but both when you think about it, both. Him dieing to Garrosh really draws parallels between the Alliance and Horde. Cairne is the peaceful but strong Alliance, Garrosh is the aggresive Horde. Garrosh won only by cheating, and didn’t even know he was. The Horde wins only by underhanded tactics, and are fools to follow warmongers, or have a known warmonger prompted to Warchief because “spirits said so.” Cairne is stronger but didn’t think of Garrosh cheating, despite knowing Grimtotems hated the rest of the tribes. Alliance have space ships that are written out, more powerful heroes, and a void elf army able to create portals to transport armies. However the Alliance acted the same way in BoL. Alliance is more powerful than the Horde, that’s why the Horde has to cheat.
HILARIOUS ENOUGH! The only difference between Garrosh vs Cairne is that the Alliance defeated the Horde. Except the victory was ALSO TOLD OFF SCREEN. I might be stretching it, but seeing it now that way does makes a bit of sense, at least to me it does. Sort of a future sight thing from that book. … I have to take this tin foil hat off.
That and dieing off screen is the worst thing that can happen to any character in any TV, movie, video game, etc. Any story, death off screen is just terrible.
Edit: Garrosh vs Cairne also shows the whole problem with the Horde constantly having civil wars and infighting.
the opposite is also true.
i will never accept a wolrd of hordecreaft no matter how much it annoys horde players. So go ahead, mock me if you want. but i don’t think that i am asking anything unreasoinable when i say that the horde cannot get away with genocide just like that.
is funny, even when i try to propose ideas that can work for both i am told
“No, horde players suffered enough, think about the horde!”.
how about no.
Your temper tantrum back there DEFFINITELY isn’t viable for ANYONE. Your answer to Syriyna said it all: according to you, we Horde players didn’t lose anything, got everything we wanted and even got to mock and scapegoat while at it. In your narrowminded ire, you literally discard all the issues this piece-of-crap narrative had on the Horde and more importantly on the Horde players that give at least some importance to the lore (general audience doesn’t matter, they just care over their purples). So, in retrospective, your “Horde has to pay” indeed comes as “pl0x Blizz let me kick Horde’s buttocks so I can spam offensive emojis in wPvP and Bg/arena!!!”
Literally nobody has ever asked for World of Hordecraft (heck, the only people who mention that use extremely high rating mythic raiding as justification ignoring this is niche to real gameplay presence of Alliance players), so kindly spare us the histrionics if you aren’t interested in addressing the discussion in a serious and respectful way.
Remind me of what these ideas were, again? Were you one of the ones who think it would be great fun for Horde players to play through falling on our knees before the Alliance and begging forgiveness?
I honestly don’t understand why some Alliance players think that would be fun or satisfying for Horde players. The best I’ve heard is “You might hate it, but it’s good for the story.”
I totally agree with this but I’d like to expand on something: while I’m sure that losing locations and having to suffer Blizz writers treating the general population of the Alliance races as impotent victims is crap, this is an issue that can be somewhat ignored by the players thanks to that awful way the writers decided to well… write the lore (A.K.A the story for the expac is told following FOTM hero NPC).
We Hordies aren’t so lucky. With every loss of our “supposedly heroic but actually villain batted for the lols” characters, we actually lose more and more ways to effectively participate in future neutral lore narratives (and yes, we already lived that: it was called Legion). And this again thanks to that current horrible way of developing lore and the “theme” for the expacs focused in FOTM NPcs.
What about do it so the horde can feel like heros again in their story?
so they can feel alliance characters as actual threats?
So then maybe the alliance is not exactly jesus? and maybe the guilt-trip that some ally characters or the story in general that i often hear isn’t like is like now?.
“i don’t want tyrande or jaina or alleria tell me how moustrous i am because the writters decided that the horde would hurt these characters one way or another”? fair enough! how about the alliance isn’t exactly clean ? and that maybe they can feel a little more justified in playing horde?.
Look at what i am telling you, i do not care about moralhighground. i would trade it anyday if i can let go the hate.
if the factions comes back to being morally gray, like it should be, then maybe the story in general would improve for everyone.
Not like is now that alliance leaders don’t want to destroy the horde because they either don’t want to see the world destroyed or they simply wanted to be leaved the hell alone because they have this dumb thing called “morals”
i really think that the alliance going a little off-raills is what it can improve the narrative for everyone and all characters involved could become even better.
if we have the correct writters, of course.
not only developing the horde, but also the alliance and all their characters.
while sure, i don’t deny that i would be happy if the horde is deleted but i am trying to find a common ground here!.
because i don’t think that horde players liked that the alliance “crimes” got away unpunished like camp taco, the purge or dazarlazor. now i can’t even imagine if the alliance actually does something at theramore or teldrassil level.
so i am sure people understand where i am coming from.
this is not true because we are constantly reminded of it by the same horde players who mocks our losses,races or characters and then dares to demand to have the same empaty towards them when none was offered to us in the first place.
Now wait just a cotton-picking minute. I’ll tell you the same thing I told the last person who claimed that no Horde players ever offered any sympathy to Alliance players back when the WoT happened: go back and actually read the threads from August 2018. You’ll find lots and lots of sympathy coming from Horde players.
those who i remember seem to be more worried that they were villain batted again and that sylvanas was going to die rather than what they actually did to the alliance or their players.
if anything i remember many horde players being happy about it. “haha suck it alliance” “haha you got nothing from lordaeron omegalul”.
but let me check, i may have forgot really it has been a year and a half.
Still with the histrionics? Piss off Ethel, you are so deeply invested in that “let me troll Horde players” mindset you didn’t even read what I wrote. I know you understand spanish, so let me explain to you in spanish:
A ver, uds. como jugadores Ali (incluso si hacen roleplay) tienen las herramientas de juego para literalmente obviar Theramore o Teldrassil o los millones de civiles sin nombre que Danuser, Afriasiabi, Golden y compañía se sacan del cuatro letras cada vez que les da por usar a la Horda de villanos sin cerebro (por Dios, si hasta es un modus operandi: representar en mil lugares lo mucho que sufrieron esos civiles sin nombre y meternos a los Hordas esa narrativa de “sientase mal por esa gente, su culpa por escoger Horda en la pantalla de selección de personajes”). Que es molesto y da rabia ser tratados como víctimas impotentes? No lo niego (de hecho bienvenido a los primeros 30 niveles de leveo Horda donde SIEMPRE hay NPCs de las razas Alianza haciendo la vida de uno imposible). Pero al final ustedes pueden seguir su camino de héroes siguiendo a Jainita y Anduincito y Velencito y demás, especialmente en expansiones neutrales o contra villanos terceros. Porque seguro es que Anduincito y Co. van a aparecer salvando al mundo en esos.
A nosotros como Horda el perder los pocos “héroes” nos cuesta caro en presente y todavía más caro en futuro. En presente porque ni siquiera puede uno jugar en paz ni al héroe ni al villano (uno es las 2 cosas al mismo tiempo o sea uno no es nada pues ambas se contradicen) y en futuro porque obvio si los poquitos personajes semi poderosos y/o relevantes que hay se mueren o se pierden ya sea asesinados por el personaje súper villano (Cairne, Vol’jin) o por irse de estúpidos a ayudarle al súper villano (Nazgrim, Nathanos), entonces cuando aparece un posible hueco en la narrativa para usarlos en la Horda en vez del consabido NPC de flavor/origen Ali pues NO ESTÁN!!! Eso fue literal lo que pasó en Legión. Cero relevancia de Hordas en la historia, y entonces uno se siente como si invadiera el juego de alguien más.
Las quejas por Thrall en Cata? Una payasada, al menos a uds. No les tocó ayudar a Bran Barbabronce 5 minutos después de que el fuera su enemigo en la campaña de guerra como si nos toca a los Hordas regularmente. A nosotros nos tratan como si jugar al desquiciado con trastorno de personalidad múltiple fuera lo normal.
I won’t deny that playing through Legion was pointless as Horde, as I have as well. It is another Activision Blizzard show don’t tell problem. We’re shown that Horde was very barely in Legion. We’re told that Horde did participate in Legion. Even though Alliance got 7/10ths of the spoils in the war, IE space ship, spartan trained light empowered goats, and Void infused elves that can train to control it from Alleria that can spawn portals to summon armies anywhere. All the while helping the Alliance leaders as they mock, insult, and berate us. All streamers and youtubers were shocked that the Nightborne joined the Horde which made playing Suramar AT THE TIME another Alliance and Night Elf zone, ironic that it feels Horde now just because of a shock value. That was probably the only reason too in the end, to “pull the rug out from under everyone.” Which is even way more sad when you think about it.
The strangest part of Legion was Horde content was cut, Baine and Highmountain. All the while Alliance content wasn’t, Tyrande, Malfurion, all of Val’sharah. Probably because Tyrande and Malfurion were needed for the Illidan story while Baine wasn’t.
Having said that the Alliance also suffered by Activision Blizzard using us Horde to beat them down everytime. Honestly believe this is used as a rule of cool, and a misdirection for the Alliance to be angry at us instead of Activision Blizzard. Have to say sadly that they’re doing a very successful job.
I just say both sides should not to do the whole victimization complex and go “WE SUFFERED MORE! WE DEMAND MORE REPARATIONS FROM THE OTHER SIDE!” That gets no where and just causes more unneeded stress. We’ve both suffered and shouldn’t demand anything from the other side. Besides it would be a very foolish business move to go “Well Horde we made you burn down the tree, now you get to pay for it! FOREVER!” That’s a sure fire way to lose 50% of your playerbase.
Edit: Also O_O won’t deny that you speaking in Spanish was cool. Can’t understand it, but dang … that was cool.
Indeed, we agree on everything. I just wanted to point out how the current way devs implement the “story of the expac” ends up affecting more the healthy lore development of the Horde. Simply put it the next expac can confidently expand and or fix issues with the narrative involving Alliance races (it may not be a guarantee but it is indeed a possibility), meanwhile itge chance it expands or fixes any of the gross lore issues left by BfA on Horde is much less probable (heck, if the extract on the incoming pre expansion novel kinda implies Horde are still divided and infighting!!! WTF!!! So after a 2nd time Horde STILL doesn’t “get it” Blizz?).
I’m from latin america and my mother language is spanish, so that rant back there was quite the piece of cake.
I tried to be the less horrible with grammar, so I think you could understand mostly just using Google translate.
i am not in a “i am going to troll horde players” i simply challenge the idea that we just should deal with it and forget about it because going further is harmful to the other side.
and my response is that i do believe is possible that we both can get more or less what we want.
all what we need to do is that the alliance throws a little of their morals out of the window for a while while they ask “what is the alliance” (and maybe getting 5 cgi cinematics about it) and at the same time that could fix some of the horde issues like. being the bad guy who deserves everything they get.
Ahora pasare al español como una devolución de cortesía.
yo entiendo los problemas que tienen los amigos hordas, mis amigos que juegan en esta facción me explicaron todo lo que estuvo mal y lo entiendo (sylvanas,saurfang, baine) Si que les meten terrible villain bat, que a algunos pjs los destruyen totalmente solo para seguir una narrativa (como hacer que thrall haga a garrosh warchief cuando todos le dijeron que tan estupido era)
Ahora, levantas un punto interesante que quizás no me eh percatado por estar sumergido en el odio.
Blizzard deliberamente escribe los eventos para hacernos enojar, incluso las novelas o golden se enfocan en el aspecto de tragedia solo para poder meterse en nuestros nervios y manipularnos emocionalmente y que estemos enojados a mas no poder.
Tampoco puedo negar lo que mencionas, donde incluso jainita (xD), en su bipolaridad se las arregla para ser heroica, a pesar de tener las manos manchadas de sangre, y sangre inocente ademas. o el mismo anduin aparente destinado a salvar el universo.
Sin embargo con lo que lucho es con la idea de que simplemente deberíamos olvidar el semejante problema que tenemos aquí de que la facción roja convertiendose en la plaga con esteroides y su genocidio y pretender que no paso.
Desería que así no fuera. pero aquí estamos.
y que la historia,para mi debería ser 50/50, como habrás visto, la historia de esta expansión no fue sobre la alianza, y uno se puede cansar rapidamente de sentirse un secundario en la historia de otro, como habrás podido comprobar en legion.
En cuanto a legión estoy totalmente de acuerdo de que fue absurdo que no haya ni un horda o orco contra kiljaeden. Yo se lo que es que te roben una kill como thrall lo hizo con garrosh y su, “le fallaste a la horda”, no señor, esto no es solo una historia horda. Por que no nos dejaron o no haya estado un personaje ally presente al momento ? por lo mismo tienen mis mas sincera simpatía vuelvo a afirmar que los personajes de la facción enemiga se queden ayudando a su facción y nada mas.
Now, going back to english, apologies all what i want is a 50/50 story, not world of hordecraft or alliancefraft, just 50/50. nothing more nothing less.
the question is. can we truly have that without involving the other faction? because so far that doesn’t seem plausible.
Good Ethel, it seems in spanish we managed to communicate with each other. I completely understand and even would support what you propose.
The issue is frankly… It absolutely CANNOT happen until the current lore writting team gets completely removed (especially the big heads or “leaders” that love to influence the story and basically use it to propel their self inserts) and replaced with actually sensible, smart and respectful people. The current lore team would 100000% make things for the worst (I mean, Brennadan nuff said).
Thanks for replying on our birth language, I really appreciate that.
Well, it IS easier to fall prey to miscommunication when one is not more than a 100% comfortable with the language. Sometimes one would like to put things one way but is infinitely harder to do in another language.
That might be a hard sell and unlikely to result in what, as that would mean replacing pretty much the same lore/writing folks behind Legion, which is also considered by many the best WoW expansion in over a decade.
Sometimes the same creative team that churns out a well received work can follow that up with a real clunker.
