The Druid Class Tree: A Comparative Analysis of Why it Fails and What it Needs

Classes Druid
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…I need it. I NEEEEEEED it!

(except it should probably affect Natural Recovery instead of Ysera’s Gift since Ysera’s gift isn’t in the talent tree anymore)

I think they should also make it so that Killing Instinct, Nurturing Instinct, and Soothe should be able to access the talent nodes below them to the left and right to increase horizontal mobility through the talent tree – with that change, ferals and guardians could get to the bottom right of the talent tree without investment in the resto/balance part, and resto and balance could get to the bottom left of the talent tree without investment in the feral/guardian part of the talent tree. Granted, Improved Rejuv would need to be moved so ferals/guardians don’t get a completely dead talent with no investment in the resto part of the tree.

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Please everybody bump tf out of this thread! Need a druid class and feral tree rework more than ev

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After talking about it here, on Reddit, and analyzing further, I have narrowed my suggestions to the following. I still believe that the above analysis of the fundamental problems of the tree is important to understanding where and why the Druid Class Tree needs to be changed, but in the interest of focusing the ask, I present the below suggestions. I believe these could be accomplished without a full tear down and rebuild of the tree. I have 4 main asks about the Druid Class Tree, and then I additionally have 1 ask about Feral PvP talents. The 4 asks are presented in top-to-bottom order when viewing the tree, but I believe that the most important are #1: condensing the top third and eliminating wasted nodes, and #4: adding The Natural Order’s Will.

1. Condense the top third of the tree by folding spec-specific talent nodes into a single node.

For instance: Rake and Rip should be condensed into “Feral Affinity”; Frenzied Regeneration and Ironfur should be condensed into “Guardian Affinity”; Rejuvenation, Swiftmend, and Wild Growth should be condensed into “Restoration Affinity”; Starfire, Sunfire, and Moonkin Form should be condensed into “Balance Affinity”. I don’t think it would be too much to also include at least half of the power of Feline Swiftness, Thick Hide, Natural Recovery, and Astral Influence in each of their matching affinities.

Not only would this remove some of the button bloat, it would significantly cut down on the wasted points each Druid spec has to spend as part of the hybrid tax inherent in the class tree. If this were to happen, there really isn’t much more to complain about in the top third. Hibernate and Remove Corruption would both be much more accessible. Cyclone would still be locked behind Nurturing Instinct, but at least that has slight meaning for Feral and Guardian due to their self-healing tools and occasional magic damage. The Ironfur node would have to be changed, and I believe moving Ursine Vigor to that spot, or at least somewhere in the top third, would be a welcome change for the majority of Druids. Though it might have less applicability for Guardian Druids, it could still find niche usefulness. Alternatively, it would be a great opportunity to introduce an upgraded version of Ironfur that perhaps grants a damage reduction for magic damage or reflects a portion of damage taken.

2. Move Wild Charge/Tiger Dash up one row and have it connect to Thick Hide and Natural Recovery

This alone would solve the issue of poor horizontal mobility. If this change was implemented, all Druids could reach all endcaps. The issue of the endcaps not being worth taking is a matter of tuning, but at least they would be reachable. Additionally, I still believe that Soothe should be skippable. It is a massively niche ability compared to Stampeding Roar, it’s a bit ridiculous that we’re forced to take it to get to Stampeding Roar. I propose that if the above change is made, Stampeding Roar and Soothe should switch places and Matted Fur and Improved Rejuvenation should connect to Lycara’s Teachings.

3. Reduce the cost of Lycara’s Teachings, move Ursine Vigor up the tree, and replace both Ursine Vigor and Forestwalk with Lycara’s Twig and some toned down version of Lycara’s Sash or Lycara’s Fleeting Glimpse

First of all, Forestwalk is never taken. Not only do we not have the points to spend on it, but even if we did, it is just not a good talent. Second, as noted above, Ursine Vigor should be moved up the tree. It is not powerful enough to warrant a spot in the bottom third, but it is also useful enough that it should be more accessible. Third, also as noted in my original post, we should not have the only 3-point node in any of the class trees; there should be no 3-point nodes in any of the class trees.

Finally, there’s a great opportunity to be thematic with this middle branch of our tree: make this three-node cluster about Lycara. Lycara’s Twig (“Shapeshifting increases the damage or healing of your next Shred, Mangle, Wrath, or Regrowth by 200%”) and Lycara’s Sash/Lycara’s Fleeting Glimpse (paraphrasing: when you shift/while in a form, you cast a spell associated with that form; Cat: Primal Wrath/Stampeding Roar; Moonkin: Starfall; Bear: Frenzied Regen/Barkskin; No form: Wild Growth/Barkskin). There might need to be some tuning for the Sash/Fleeting Glimpse, but even a nerfed form would be better and more interesting than Forestwalk. Additionally, if Protector of the Pack and/or Nature’s Vigil were powerful enough to warrant taking (instead of their current version of ), tuning might not be such a big concern because we would actually have choices to make in the bottom third of our tree.

4. Find a spot for The Natural Order’s Will

Again, The Natural Order’s Will is: “Barkskin reduces damage taken by an additional 10%. When Barkskin starts or ends in Bear Form, gain Ironfur and Frenzied Regeneration.”

I truly believe that this talent would be a perfect addition to the tree that would increase Druid’s survivability in a skill-based way and in a way that is not so overpowered that we become unkillable and can just stand in bad in PvE or out in the open in PvP. It requires shifting into Bear Form preemptively, which could really impact our damage if not set up correctly. It is truly a high skill-expression ability that would be a great addition and would go a long way towards shoring up our defensive issues.

As for where it could go, I believe it would be most appropriately placed as either a choice node with Heart of the Wild, or next to it.

5. [PvP-Specific] Give our PvP talents a once-over. Several are useless/never taken, others could be great but need something more. Specifically: Strength of the Wild.

Again, this is from a Feral point of view, apologies to other specs and to PvErs, but feel free to chime in with your own opinions here!

Originally I went talent by talent, but it’s just too much. The main highlights are: Fresh Wound and Savage Momentum are never taken, they should either be reworked, improved, or removed for better talents. High Winds and Leader of the Pack were nerfed too much and now hardly ever see play.

But the main thing I want to address is Strength of the Wild. This talent is so close to being good, I believe that it would be great if the Strength of the Wild ability that you learn, which reads “Maul the target for 8% of the target’s maximum health in Physical damage,” should instead read:

“Maul the target, extending the duration of your active bleeds on the target by X seconds.”

That alone would help Bear Form not be so useless in PvP. Here are some other options:

“Maul the target, dealing X% of the target’s maximum health in Physical damage per bleed on the target”; or

“Maul the target, dealing X% of the damage you have taken in the last 4 seconds.”

The main idea is to turn the additional ability we get into something that helps our Feral dps specifically, or turns Bear Form into a truly dangerous defensive that makes people pause and think if it’s worth it to continue tunneling us.

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Was so hyped about your YouTube video recently! Such great suggestions here as well. I too would like bear form to get more value. Like defensive stance warrior is what I think of. And how they have all there abilities and nothing changes other than the dmg reduction. Of course doing an exact copy of that idea could be cheesy (giving all cat form abilities while in bear) but… point is it needs something. Love your ideas. I think just a flat DR like 30%-40% every time you go in bear for like 6s and just get rid of Surv Inst. Or just perma DR 30%. Or give cat form DR when stunned like wrath so we can also not feel like paper in cat and can feel more free to stay in form. Just my ideas right now. Or give cat form “Ursoc Ward” the equivalent of Cenarion Ward, but its effect is a buff on you that lasts 10s that activates when stunned for the duration of the stun. And reduces damage to you in cat form by 30%. So at least there’s some skill expression tied to cat form DR.

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Right? You can be upset but still be respectful. If I were to read a write up of my work, and the writer started laying into it and calling my work complete trash, I’d stop reading and never give it the time of day again.

Discretion is key to getting change.

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I wouldn’t say they are neglected, we have been getting some pretty cool forms, ect.
I definitely think the talent tree needs to be looked at so we are not so spread out with useless talents/paths. I agree that having innervate where it is as feral is a huge detriment to the spec. and some pathing needs to not be dead ends.

Most other classes, there are very few changes needed going from Single to Cleave to AOE specs.

For feral you need to Change almost everything, and there isn’t even a good viable cleave spec. Even then theres some talents I wouldn’t ever consider picking (COUGH LUNAR INSPIRATION) (COUGH RELENTLES PREDATOR)

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As I said to the person you’re replying to, I feel my rhetoric was tame, and I explained where I felt the rhetoric was perhaps the most forceful and my reasoning behind the words I used. I don’t feel like anything I said was disrespectful, but if you have suggestions, I am open to anything that will improve the message.

If you were actually in this situation, I would hope that you took the time to revisit your work once or twice in an 18-month span, especially given the novel, experimental, and living nature of that work.

Again, if the message you are getting is that the tree is complete trash, then great. That is the point—and the truth—but those are not the words I have used to express that point. If you feel like I’ve crossed a line with any specific portion of my post, please tell me where and I will happily reevaluate.

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Bump this thread!

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Just some quick thoughts after watching the only Feral - Cassidy - get bounced from AWC fairly unceremoniously:

  • He spent the entire game trying to catch up to the Arcane Mage. The mobility arms race has completely passed Druids by. Double Blink, Blink back, Blastwave, Frost Nova…. Druids have shifting (note: not powershifting), roots, and a single 15 second CD Wild Charge. Frankly, I think that mobility needs to be tuned down for everyone else, but given how unlikely that is, Druids need something else. A second charge of Wild Charge is a good start. Removing some of the wasted points in the tree so that Ferals can take Feline Swiftness and perhaps the CD reduction on Stampeding Roar more frequently would also be welcome.

  • In the second round, Cassidy died with 19% dampening, and his death log showed that his Frenzied Regeneration—in Bear Form—was ticking for roughly 50k. It’s been a long time since I’ve taken math, but if we increase the 50k by 20% to account for dampening, it’s 60k a tick for 4 ticks, which is 240k. Health pools are now over 1 million in arenas, and even higher in Bear Form, but generously, let’s say his health was just 1 million, a 25% heal over 4 seconds while being able to do 0 damage is just ridiculous. This could be addressed by making some much needed improvements to Strength of the Wild.

The main things we need are:

1. Still better healing

The un-nerfs to Regrowth and Frenzied Regeneration are a step in the right direction, but we’re still very regularly last on the healing meters, which is insane for a hybrid spec. We’re losing on the healing meters to Warriors and Mages regularly, Rogues even. If we were just losing to Shamans or Priests or hybrids generally, okay. But to lose to these pure dps classes all the time…. It’s crazy to me.

2. Better, non-healing defensives

  • The Natural Order’s Will, which buffs Barkskin by 10%, and has a high skill floor to use most effectively.
  • A second charge of Survival Instincts.
  • A buff to Ironfur, making it cost less rage (i.e. actually usable), make it affect magic damage, maybe make it reflect damage taken.
  • Changes to Strength of the Wild, including things like: making Mangle extend our bleeds, making Thrash do damage based on our Feral bleeds, making the active Strength of the Wild ability deal damage based on damage taken while in Bear Form.

3. More access to mobility in the tree

Mobility is historically part of a Druid’s defensive kit, but talents like Feline Swiftness, Tireless Pursuit, Improved Stampeding Roar… even things like Forestwalk, are all luxuries that Druids – Ferals especially – can’t afford in most situations. If the wasted points in the Class Tree were pruned, we’d have more freedom to take some of these mobility talents.

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I think something like this would be needed at very minimum. My assessment from the very beginning, once all of the trees came out, was that Druid was going to be the hardest because they not only have to fit four specs into one tree but form-specific abilities on top of that. Putting multiple abilities into an ‘affinity’ talent, and potentially even having those be the top nodes of the tree, could go a long way towards cleaning up the tree.

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I admittedly haven’t PvPed for a long time, but is this really an “everybody else” thing or is it a “mostly just mages and maybe another class or two” thing?

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100% agreed. The class tree for druids is the worst class tree of all the classes in the game.

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Agreed, it really could make a huge difference!

This is a totally fair question, and you’re right, it’s not everybody. But it’s more than just Mages. The main issue is really the interconnection of these two points—because other classes have better class trees, they have easier access to preexisting and new mobility tools, while we can’t spare the points to even get our old mobility back.

I know that one-to-one comparisons are not really the point here, but one of the main offenders for me is Fleet Footed in the Rogue tree—1 very easy point for 15% move speed in a tree that has no wasted talents, incredible lateral mobility, and is made up of almost entirely 1-point nodes. In our case, we have to spend 2 points for the same benefit (a benefit which used to just be rolled into Feral’s Cat Form/Feral Affinity), and because of the points we have to waste elsewhere in the tree, we can’t afford to spend those 2 points in Feline Swiftness.

Things like Enhancement being able to always run Feral Lunge, the Monk talent Escape From Reality, and just all the other basic move speed increases in other class trees that these other classes have the luxury to spend points in while Ferals can’t afford the 2 points to give us back a move speed increase that used to be baseline…. It’s frustrating, and the effect is apparent when you watch Cassidy’s AWC games—he gets incredibly little uptime and struggles mightily to chase down anyone on the enemy team.

If the class tree was pruned of the wasted points and we could comfortably take Feline Swiftness and choose one of Tireless Energy or Improved Stampeding Roar, this probably would not be quite as much of an issue.

Additionally, I think a good (albeit boring) change would be to reduce the cooldown of Wild Charge slightly, or give a second charge with a slightly increased cooldown. But it’d also be cool to be able to use Wild Charge once more even when it’s on cooldown if you use it in a different form than the form that invoked the cooldown.

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he also have to sit bear 90% of the time and just dies then … with no real defense /immunity where enemy is forced to swap target they just train feral 24/7. also ist super hard to impossible to cyclone (even so for follow-up CC on trap or sheep). we need
SI to be 80% dmg reduction or even 90%, and cyclone be able to be cast with predator swiftness like we had in woltk and cata.

remember when dispersion was only 70% dmg reduction? the sp got killed even when he pre popped it.- thats what happends currently with feral

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Unfortunately they’ll never let Feral clone with PS again. It was my favourite, but it would be a balancing nightmare for a team that’s already ignorant of Feral’s issues.

I think along with the excellent ideas to the class tree, FR just for feral should be un-nerfed for one. I’m for more buffs to Feral without making Resto too tanky.

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I was discussing this with some friends the other day and decided to procrastinate and write out some of my thoughts on it but largely from Feral pve pov.

Obviously picking up so many core abilities doesn’t feel great (especially core abilities for other specs), but of what is good (it’s not all terrible and having played some other classes it does provide more choice than even some of the reworked trees - including Rogue tbh). I do really enjoy all the utility + defensive options and hope they are expanded on as there is some decent choice and decisions to be made which feels good, but limited due to available points after pathing through so many redundant nodes. I do also like some of the off-spec ‘throughput nodes’ as they create interesting choice with certain builds or on certain fights (Nurturing Instincts + Starsurge specifically for Feral as options are good). Don’t even mind regular throughput nodes (Rising Light) IF there are different options to path to it (like you noted tree lacks horizontal pathing), as having a few ‘goals’ to reach in the tree isn’t necessarily bad providing you can choose how to get there.

  • Maim – AOE stops for M+ feel bloataed this xpac with talent trees (new AOE stops added + many spec-only AOE stops became class wide), with single-target stops overshadowed. Maim feels costly both in talent points, but also costly in even using it (in PVE at least) by spending combo points and 30 energy on what can feel quite meh.
    • ‘Big’ threatening mobs in M+ are far too often stun immune as well which kills the need for longer ST stops.
    • The ‘chain AOE stops’ M+ gameplay is a bit overdone in general, and single-target stops IMO need to be brought up in some ways.
    • Particularly bad if someone AOE stuns and your long Stun is then DR’d (& you spent combo point + energy on it).
    • Bash has similar issues, needs a stronger effect in PVE.
  • Dispel either baseline or easier to access.
    • Current system is a huge trap for players & creates the need for weakaura reminders based on zone/affixes. Negatively impacting a key because you simply forgot or didn’t know is not worth whatever little choice it adds.
    • Needless knowledge barrier & expecting players to memorise too much every season with rotating dungeons + bad for returning players jumping into a season.
    • IMO any dispel nodes should be enhancing it e.g. reduced CD, gives a buff or heal to target, or rewards player for dispelling. That way you still have choice for Afflicted weeks / certain dungeons without punishing player knowledge.
  • Rebirth QOL improvements to via talents or in general – to alleviate issues such as cast time, form loss - notably the punishment for even attempting to brez.
  • Being able to cast Brez in Bear (this is moreso a bug that still hasn’t been fixed, even if you have enough rage it won’t cast).
  • Solution to shifting feeling bad because it makes Tiger’s Fury fall off (one of the more punishing aspects at times IMO, feels worse than even energy capping).
  • Tireless Pursuit moved to be a ‘nice to have’ pathing option, rather than a dead-end node on the side of the tree.
  • Ursine Vigor extended to give full Bearform HP for its duration even when shifting out. Currently only retains extra HP from Ursine, and 10% per talent point is costly for its position. Alternatively Ursine Vigor that lasts for longer so you can retain some actual benefit when going back to your regular form rather than at most 2 seconds.

More personal wishes:

  • HOTW expanded to provide more functionality (e.g. instant Brez) or more bonuses regardless of form while its up (for example it increases healing in any form, but the bearform benefit is exclusive to bear… if it gave you e.g. increased HP while its up no matter form that would be nice).
  • The HP-related talents and Bearform synergy are cool (various Frenzied Regen talents, Ursine Vigor, Renewal, HOTW + healing increase talents), really loved Bear+UV+Fleshcraft last xpac for example as it felt amazing going into Bearform and using this, some of the most satisfying shifting ever for Druid imo.
    • Matted Fur giving bonus absorb if cast in Bear would be cool.
    • Renewal having a bonus HOT based on the amount healed (as a secondary talent), so Bearform+Renewal gives greater reward that also lasts when you shift back into reg form (even greater reward with Ursine Vigor, Verdant Heart, Forestwalk etc).
  • More Regrowth talents, things like Forestwalk are ‘nice’ but need to be tuned/positioned appropriately.
  • Tireless Pursuit extended functionality such as possible cast on the move with buff up for things like Rebirth and Cyclone so we can further utilise the speed for things we shift out of form for.
  • Not sure about this but maybe 2x Survival Instincts charges back for Feral and removing Barkskin, then using Bear to cover gaps. I really loved 2x SI charges 2 mins each in the past and they could add talents to let you use it in stuns (pvp). Only issue is how it would interact with current Barkskin talents, but it would also cut out a keybind. Still though haven’t fully decided if this would be better or not.
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First time seeing this. Great thread. Feral has been far and away my favorite spec the past few expansions except for this one, in part due to the Druid tree. I really hope they revisit it and make some good updates. The fact that it’s been in the state it is the entire expansion so far has me cautiously pessimistic that if they do anything at all, it won’t be until next expansion :confused:

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they already said nothing is gonna happen till next xpac

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These are some good ideas, thanks for your thoughts Cheesey!

I havn’t even been playing Feral lately (partly because it takes so long to find a tank/healer) but yea it does seem like Feral started out great at the beginning of Dragonflight and then just fell by the wayside.

Not sure if it’s the “hybrid tax” or what, but Feral doesn’t really bring any unique utility other than Brez, and we are the only spec that is punished for using it (takes us out of form). Would love a change to Brez, if nothing else.

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Depends on how you define “punishment”. By taking us out of form, because we’re losing damage by having to shift back? Well in that case, Paladins and DK’s are also punished as it takes their resources to Brez