This is probably going to make little sense when I say it.
if they had no meta, players would make a meta.
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You’ve just made my point, how much longer and more effort did it take to make your spec able to perform the content? I bet it was a lot longer than someone playing a meta class, and I’m also willing to bet that if this was a regular raid tier, by the time it was optimal, you would already be already over halfway through the tier.
Ion has literally said, and I’m sure Limit and other WFR guilds would agree, at the top end there will always be a meta. All they can do is make sure the game is fun for the majority of players in the majority of the content in the way they intend them to play it.
If all class/spec/covenant combos can clear +15s and all class/spec/covenant combos can acquire cutting-edge titles, they’re accomplished their mission in their eyes.
My own personal opinion is that Blizzard should start making Mythic raiding slightly more approachable and add non-canon “Omega” level raid encounters. The problem with Blizzard right now is that they design a fight like Kil’jaeden to take like 800 attempts because it would be awesome to have such a fight exist for the top of the top and then they have to redesign or nerf the content so that the rest of the Mythic guilds can actually clear it. It’s bad. They should make the final boss of Mythic raids perhaps not Xavius level but somewhere lower than KJ, like 250 attempts or something like that. And then they can put out like one optional boss a tier whose there just purely for the thrill, not locking any loot, not locking Cutting Edge, just purely a challenge for the best players in the world.
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how is that contradictory though really.
the point is the mechanical difficulty of the game.
spec and itemization choices don’t equate to mechanical or in game skill is the point.
it isn’t at all contradictory
This is exactly my point, when Blizzard makes Mythic raid encounters, they make it require so much optimization, it forces other specs out in the beginning of the tier because they’re not optimal.
Classes should have weakness and advantages if not they would be just the same I don’t have a problem with that. Yes I recognize this game isn’t balanced but I just want to counter your point that that’s why people don’t do certain things.
Unless you are going for world first on pve you can do all content. People just don’t want to do it. And that would still be true in the hypothetical scenario where only one class is available. Making mythic raiding or high keys easier won’t do nothing for the balance problems there is.
Unless you legit just take whatever falls into your inventory, at some point you’ll be seeking out ways to make your character stronger. Normal people aren’t even doing +15 keys and they’re getting dunked on in Arenas, and somehow they are going to like being even less optimal when they do bump against that higher end content?
Okay. This is a separate issue to Covenants.
As I said, you can address this completely separately from Covenants. The idea that we should scrap a game feature because a fraction of a fraction of players are doing weird stuff and this trickles down a bit is absurd. Address that people separately. Make the min-max players have their own little game to play. Let the hardcore raid guilds spend a whole week on one encounter. The rest of the Mythic raid guilds aren’t going to stack their guild for the 9.1 raid for what these guilds are doing in the 9.1.5 omega boss encounter.
But getting back to my original point, if they want to do away with requiring the min-maxing that they do around the beginning of a raid tier, by essence they will need to make it easier, otherwise class/specs/covenants will be excluded which is against their “goal” in shadowlands
You are the one that said normal people don’t do it and you gave some numbers.
It’s not up to us to google it. You gave the numbers so it is up to you to provide the actual information and once that is done it is either up to us agree or debunk the information.
I doubt that raiding being easier would stop the meta slave mentality.
For example take mid-high keys (like 15-18). Bfa 8.3 has a lot of issues but one thing we can all agree that corruption is so broken that you can clear them with any class if your gear is good. Yet you still see some people only wanting Resto druids. It’s like the problem with io. A large amount of people don’t fully understand it and demand certain things on the ilussion that that’s the only way to do it. Heck I’ve seen people asking for 3k io for a 15 on time! That behavior won’t change if the content is easier, there will be a meta always and there will be problem discerning when that is needed and not.
I agree with you that for world firsts a meta composition is required and that messes with the requirement of some classes but after a couple of weeks that necessity is no longer and all what’s left is our perception on which class is better. After a couple of weeks every class can complete any content. What we have to change is our mentality not the game since we aren’t world first raiders.
Edit: don’t get me wrong. Balance is an issue and it’s worrying me seeing the conduits on sl. Check pikaboo stream on sub rogue arena using the cc inmunity conduit and you ll see him destroying people 2 vs 1. If sl goes live as it is, then yes I’d agree with you that the meta will be just too God tier to be ignored. And those weeks I named might become two months for another classes and that would indeed become a priblem
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Yes, but my point is by not making things easy enough so that even when the lowest ranked classes/covenants can’t complete Mythic raids at the same point the higher classes/covenants can, even when played optimally, the devs have failed the design goals they’ve set for themselves, and considering Blizzard’s record of balance, the only course left is to make encounters easy enough the meta doesn’t matter for completion in the same time frame, not 2 weeks to 1 month after the most optimal class/spec/covenant has done it.
Edit:
My problem, once again, isn’t that there’s a meta, it’s that the game design clashes with their stated goal in shadowlands
Should they maybe cap mythic+ rather than let it scale infinitely?
Also classic has a heavy meta and it’s LFR style easy. It’s about 3rd party parses and raider.io score PvP than against the content itself.
Considering I’m not the biggest fan of M+, my argument more relies on Mythic Raid design. But it should be balanced to a point that there doesn’t need to be as much gearing on lower tier classes to complete for the highest tier rewards, whether Blizzard sets that at 10 or 15. It shouldn’t have as disproportionately varying complete percentage per spec at the highest reward structure as it does now within the same time-frame.
Also I think they can strike a balance in encounter design where it’s not LFR easy, but doesn’t push the “meta” as hard as it does now in Mythic raid content.
Tbh emerald nightmare probably was closer to that
Yeah, I’ve heard it wasn’t as hard as the Mythic raids on either side of it, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing. But I have also heard it basically cut-copy-pasted some encounters without innovating or a little experimentation to shake the encounter up a bit.
That’s a perfect example. See classic. Every raid there is super easy if people know what to do (there are videos of people clearing them naked).
Yet if you are a balance druid you won’t get invited to any raid because your spec is objectively worst than a mage. And you can’t make raids any easier than that, most specs are just standing there casting one spell.
That’s an excellent argument against easier raiding meaning less meta slave thinking
It’s because meta slaving is actually a form of “PvP” and by that I mean the thought process isn’t in regards to clearing the content, it’s about competing against other players.