And like I said, I agree that gearing is too fast because of the quality of gear that comes from M+. You can brute force your way to better than heroic raid item level in a few weeks which creates various problems.
But you also started calling it max item level and BIS which carry different weight. They also have mathematically calculable definitions, making them not an opinion. Relying on hyperbolic statements that are factually untrue impacts your credibility. At least for me I’m on the side of your general stance that M+ gearing is too fast, you don’t need to make things up that can be proven false very easily.
I’m sorry, what? How is M+ any less of content than raid? What does having keys and timers have to do with whether it’s content?
This sentiment gets repeatedly by mythic raiders but I can’t actually recall a time when I saw an open world player asking for this. There have certainly been players asking for things like tier set bonuses, but I have not once seen someone asking for that at anything remotely comparable to mythic item level. It really seems like an organized strawman at this point…
And this is where our own biases will interfere with trying to compare the level of difficulty between M+ and raid. You can make up whatever multiplier of difficulty you want, it’s not based on any objective fact and isn’t really worth much for making a compelling argument. I agree that the M+ rewards are too lucrative for their difficulty, but have no way to assess at what key level the difficulty is the same. The reality is that both modes test related but still different skill sets. A direct comparison is not possible, no matter how much you try to pretend it is.
So while +20 is probably not the level the rewards should be even, I don’t have a way to measure what the level should be. This makes it a rather useless argument to engage in because neither one of us will have a way to really measure the difficulty of each.
i can understand that. but on top of it all i think what got me the most annoyed with m+ gearing currently is the upgrade system. while nice on paper it just sets this precedent that oh look you got this bis trinket finally after 20 m+ runs. now run 3-6 more to upgrade it to max because we all know it would take months to upgrade with early mythic raid progression and no boss kills.
as i said in previous posts i love gear like the nice person. and deep down i do love how m+ gives it so freely and easily and with bloated ilvls. but what i hate and have a problem with is that it becomes unenjoyable and a burden when it feels forced. i am an old school raider “raid or die” player. and because m+ is here it is expected of me to come prepared. and when there is overly inflated ilvl loot raining from the sky in m+, you just need to eye bleed endless grind it out then it becomes a problem and burns you out.
end game gear should be given out based off of content difficulty. if m+ had some sort of lockout or hard capped ilvl with no repeatable farming upgrade system i think i could be happy with that. but to have it the way it is just creates this toxic “got to get that weapon” or “got to get that trinket” before raid scenario.
Part of the issue is, per an interview / discussion with developers on the design of warfronts in BFA, there is an internal success rate goal for queued content in WoW of about 80-85%. WoW’s queued content is designed to be beaten.
Adding M+ or other challenging PvE content to a queue system would completely go against this philosophy.
Wildstar had automated queues for difficult content (cause everything about it was) Think the groups that formed were rarely successful, then the queues themselves became largely deserted.
idk if you read the whole discussion we’re having for 2 hours now, but i said a solo queue for mythic plus up to lvl 20 keystones, is def possible. Anything higher, then yes go to premade group finder or play with your squad. And i will say again, that that this is also possible for raiding, normal, HC and even mythic. The technology to do it is available, and the argument that “oh it’s challenging content” is just complete BS to me. Ppl said in this thread more than once that lvl 20 keys are free, so what are you even on about ? I legit do not understand how you people think that paying a sub to play this game and then not playing it… or spending even more money on buying a boost, is actualy a good thing ! delusional doesn’t seem to fully express that train of thought but hey maybe i’m too much of a boomer to understand idk
for the record, i don’t even care about sucess rate friend. Assuming this new gearing system stays to the end of this expac, i want a tool that allows me to farm crests so can craft my gear, as opposite to, staring at group finder, get unlucky with the squad you invite/join to, waste 3 hours of your life and not even get the crests you wanted in the 1st place. Press a button - play the game. Good ppl or bad ppl ? don’t really care, just let me play the game that i pay for
it sets a different mindset and precedent among the vast majority of the playerbase. unless you are in rwf guild which 99.99% are not.
i have seen this a ton of times on these forums. and i am sure anyone that spends any time on these forums have seen it many times as well. and to be a little more specific the main thing i see with it is that they want “their own gearing path to end game gear via solo play”
no these are facts. i am not in any hardcore over the top ce guild by no means. we only went 5/8M last tier and are 4/9M currently in this tier. and in this current tier we only 2x kills on each boss and guess what? i still dont have any items from raid. for 1 because the 1 item that dropped that i could use, a cloak from 1st boss was not as good as my heroic sark rare cloak.
but what i am getting is that i spent countless hours wiping and overcoming these mythic bosses and still am not wearing 1 piece of mythic gear from any of these 4 bosses (almost 2 months since release) all the while someone can out gear these raiders in ilvl by completing content that is vastly easier in 1/20th the time? just dont add up.
and i like that you can see this. keys are infinite scaling. will players infinitely complete them? no. unless gear infinitely scales with the key. so where is the cut off? should the cut off be at normal > heroic raid ilvl and then allow skill and tactics be the defining feature for pushing high level keys? or should m+ have its own gearing path that has no impact on mythic raiding?
That doesn’t even begin to address my question. Why is M+ not a form of content? What makes raid special?
End game gear does not have to mean BIS, you just take it to mean that. Wanting a progression path for gear seems perfectly reasonable to me.
People misuse the term facts. There is no way to objectively measure the difficulty of raid versus M+. There are simply too many variables; the skills required are similar yet different for both. Even for bosses where I might agree with you on a relative difficulty of any given boss, someone else might hold a different opinion and there really isn’t any way to prove or disprove either position.
Like I said, most +20 keys are not as difficult as most mythic raid bosses, I’m truly with you on that. But that’s based on my subjective bias, just like you have your own subjective bias.
The challenge I’m having is that you repeatedly want to position these M+ keys as being “vastly easier” when talking about gearing speed which are two different concerns. One being farmable with a relatively short end time makes even difficult content still reward significant item level on a much shorter time frame. But that doesn’t mean the content itself is easy. It might be, but the speed of gearing alone doesn’t reflect that.
I think that the max gear from M+ should always be on par with mythic raid in terms of M+ power; it is an endgame pillar after all. A player who wants to focus solely on M+ should be able to compete in progression and if raid gear continues to be better in the long run that won’t be possible. That max gear should almost certainly come from +25 or higher, but it should be an avenue for players truly able to reach the pinnacle of the mode.
But yeah I don’t know what level that gear should be. My guild which raids for something to do rather than as a reason for our existence is 7/9 heroic, yet if I form a M+ group with the median players on their main roles, even completing a +12 on tyrannical will be tough depending on the dungeon. This gets back to the two modes testing different skill sets. The average guildie is getting far better gear from the heroic raid bosses we’ve killed than from the M+ keys they can complete at this point.
This is another suggestion that I think is worth exploring to some degree. I don’t think gear should be completely useless across the modes; I mean I’m going to be real salty if I focus on M+ the first two weeks of a season and decide to raid in week 3 and my gear is only good enough for LFR. But I think something like the PVP treatment were items get big level bumps in their respective content would be good. That way if someone comes back in the middle of a tier they can spend a couple weeks farming M+ before joining their guild’s heroic raid without being a total liability, but any slot where a player got a raid drop it would be a significant upgrade in raid compared to an M+ item.
plenty of people who don’t tank in raid enjoy tanking and want to tank, it’s just that raids only need two tanks. i guess it depends on your guild. i’m in a very casual raid guild but we’ve still got people who tank in raid but maintain dps alts or who dps in raid but heal in their spare time. i’m not sure why your response was so angry.
Absolutely, and some tiers are better than others for this. I’m not trying to say there will never be big power spikes from M+. It’s just I can’t remember a tier where more than half of the specs had more power from M+ than raid but can remember many tiers where raid items were significantly better for nearly all specs. I mean, there aren’t any S1 M+ items being nerfed in 10.1.5 like the Eranog ring…
Indeed, and there are usually outliers every season like that, I’m not trying to claim otherwise. But it is interesting that they let the raid item go for half the season but ensured the M+ item didn’t make it to the start of the season.
Must be nice, S1 I was averaging 10, 10+ dungeons for 1 loot drop. RNG is slightly better in Raid, for me at least. This Raid Season within 2 weeks I had BiS or one-off BiS in every slot, with the last tier piece unlocked with AoTC reward. I’ve resigned from M+due to many reasons, but lack of loot being the highest. I’m not healing for DPS that can’t locate an interrupt nor manage their defensives for 300 gold and a 3k repair bill and a “lottery ticket” for a vault. Hard Pass.
well aside from everyone bickering back and forth, the bottom line is that because m+ is pumping out end game ilvl which can be attained in as little as 2-3 weeks or for arguments sake a month it is making a large part of the player base that “raid or die” forced into content they normally wouldnt even look at.
i am all for things being added and not being removed. but in the case of m+ the possibilities are endless. lets take for instance if m+ had its own gearing path, its own trinkets with special effects for added flavor and really cool over the top special set items with powerful bonuses etc… that might rope me and players like me into it.
but as it stands we are at a crossroads where if i want to keep my raid spot and not hinder my guilds progression i HAVE to run m+ to make sure i am geared and ready as can be with the highest ilvl i can have to help push mythic raid. and that to me is forced content. and because we are already geared from m+, when we do kill a new mythic raid boss it feels unrewarding and 9/10 times you dont need anything cause your wearing equal and in some cases better.
just imagine the possibilities of “fun” m+ could be if it had its own gear path and gear sets. it might even wash the stains away.