The Aggrieved - Teldrassil & Beyond

[Tihoccan-azgalor]

I wasn’t speaking over nelves in this particular scenario though.

Just in general that slaugher of one city doesn’t have to bring danger to entire population. It can of course depending how big population itself is.

For example if I’d bomb one town of massive population, it wouldn’t necessary mean I intended to end their existance as a whole.
But If I’d nuke one valley which hosts the ethnic group which cannot be found anywhere else then it would be genocide because said ethic group would cease to exist.
You need to look at the consequences it brings to the nation as a whole.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

Did we figure out that was a Darkspear and not Shatterspear? I remember someone asking (in another thread? here?) and no one was sure.

Was it ever fully determined if that mage and Shaman were Darkspear or Shatterspear?

In A Good War the Shatterspear weren’t around:

Nathanos said, gesturing toward the troll. “This one had close dealings with the Shatterspear tribe.”


Saurfang’s brow furrowed. “Shatterspear?”

“Used to be livin’ near Darkshore,” Rejiji said, brushing the dirt off his cloak. “Fled after da Cataclysm.”

So it was a Darkspear.

You need to look at the consequences it brings to the nation as a whole.

To which I responded to you:

Sylvanas intended for genocide against the Night Elves from the very beginning, as she herself spelled out in an internal monologue in A Good War:

This battle was not about a piece of land. Even Saurfang knew that. Taking the World Tree was a way to inflict a wound that could never heal. Losing their homes and their leaders would have ended the kaldorei as a nation, if not a people.

Which you either ignored, or have didn’t realize what you were posting when your only response was:

You have some serious struggle to understand what genocide is.

[Anelaan-wyrmrest-accord (Anelaan)]

In A Good War the Shatterspear weren’t around:

Nathanos said, gesturing toward the troll. “This one had close dealings with the Shatterspear tribe.”

Saurfang’s brow furrowed. “Shatterspear?”

“Used to be livin’ near Darkshore,” Rejiji said, brushing the dirt off his cloak. “Fled after da Cataclysm.”

So it was a Darkspear.

Thanks.

[Tihoccan-azgalor]

Which you either ignored, or have didn’t realize what you were posting when your only response was:

Because I was reffering to Amani, not Nelves. I never questioned what happened to nelves, I questioned people who claimed that what happened to Amani wasn’t genocide.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

I never questioned what happened to nelves

As long as that has been clarified, at least something came out of all this discussion then.

[Arlifrex-moon-guard (Arlifrex)]

As long as that has been clarified, at least something came out of all this discussion then.

When has anything good come out of these debates?

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

When has anything good come out of these debates?

I caught a lot more details reading over the cited passages again than I otherwise would have because of these discussions, and I consider that a good thing.

[Julia-icecrown (Julia)]

Thank You for clarifying that.

[Vanaelia-moon-guard]

Well, I certainly had a busy Saturday. Now, to check back on the thread–

–okay. Things have remained active while I was gone. That’s good.

And for the most part, people have maintained the Queensbury rules I mentioned, what with the civility and such. Remember: Humans on the other side of the screen.

I’ll respond to some of these as we review them, but a couple of things I want to clarify first.

This is not a night elf/Teldrassil thread, specifically. I can say that with some authority because I was the one who made it. I’m okay with people talking about what they believe are parallels or related to that situation, and fine with an exploration of that. It’s dealt lately with the matter of the Amani trolls, which is not so far removed that discussing it constitutes going off topic.

I would maybe - maybe - remind people that sometimes people are going to fundamentally disagree on things, and that’s actually okay. And you will neither win a prize nor gain a penalty if you just say “I don’t think we’re ever going to see eye to eye on this”, and just leave it at that. I would prefer that if the alternative is people sniping at each other.

To clarify, I don’t mind discussion. I don’t mind persuasion. But keep everything above board. To paraphrase something I remember hearing a while ago, feel free to question someone’s judgment. Not their intent.

Queensbury. Nothing below the belt, hm?

That’s just in general. To everyone, including myself. But there is one specific point I want to address.

When has anything good come out of these debates?

It’s always good to be exposed to perspectives other than your own. Even if it’s something you’ve heard before, you may not know why one person believes something. The point of debates is discussion. Any debate that actually involves the exchange of ideas is always a good thing.

My point is that I don’t want people taking things personally if someone disagrees with you. That’s why I try to stress that on a few occasions. If I disagree with your view, I’m not trying to call you personally into scrutiny, or anything.

I caught a lot more details reading over the cited passages again than I otherwise would have because of these discussions, and I consider that a good thing.

Precisely.

[Arlifrex-moon-guard (Arlifrex)]

It’s always good to be exposed to perspectives other than your own. Even if it’s something you’ve heard before, you may not know why one person believes something. The point of debates is discussion. Any debate that actually involves the exchange of ideas is always a good thing.

My point is that I don’t want people taking things personally if someone disagrees with you. That’s why I try to stress that on a few occasions. If I disagree with your view, I’m not trying to call you personally into scrutiny, or anything.

You have a higher hope for online “discussions” than I do.

[Vanaelia-moon-guard]

You have a higher hope for online “discussions” than I do.

Seneca.

Yadda yadda wretched anticipate misfortunes etc.

Humans have a tendency to focus on the bad and ignore the good. That’s why we remember that one bad hamburger, and not the hundreds of other good ones we had. People remember those times that forums devolved into pettiness and spite and namecalling, and ignore the vast majority of the times that it doesn’t.

And what is the alternative? To not even try?

To continue on, with no attempt to make any change, or make things better? Condemn yourself to a belief that any kind of exchange of knowledge will be met with a realization that all things are somehow meaningless or pointless?

That is the height of cynicism. That is not something I can do.

I’ve had good conversations on forums before. I’ve had some here. People who have disagreed with me - sometimes openly - have “liked” my posts. Yes, in this thread. If you scroll up, you will see people who disagreed with each other end up acknowledging the other had valid points. Sometimes new information was shared. New conclusions were drawn.

That is not some idealistic hope. That actually literally happened in this very thread.

I get that it’s hip and trendy to do the whole “too cool for school” thing and just dismiss things preemptively. That is both your prerogative, and the prerogative of anyone else. I suppose I would maybe ask people to ask themselves why they felt that way. Like, what’s the harm if it turns out that this thread does end up with a bunch of people screaming at each other? You could always just look at a different thread, right?

---

Oh. Question.

The Highborne quickly realized just how vulnerable they had become without the Well of Eternity. For the first time in memory, they began to die of starvation. Only the compassion of some primitive Humans living in the mountains kept the entire expedition from perishing in the winter’s fury.

Do we know who those humans were? Rather, the ancestors of? Gilneans? Alterac?

I ask for role-play reasons; I think it would be a kind of neat concept to have blood or void elf that felt indebted to those humans because of that aid.

If you don’t have a direct answer, that’s fine. I wouldn’t mind a guess, though.

It would actually be pretty interesting, come to think of it, if it was from the…the Perenolde people? Ha. Boy, that’d be weird.

[Velratha-azgalor]

I see it the same way. Discourse is always good. The moment we stop talking to each other is when things really go down the drain.

We can’t ( and shouldn’t ) expect to convert people to our point of view, but I think it’s important to see, contemplate and accept other opinions even if we don’t agree with them.

If anything, it helps us remember that the grass is indeed not greener on the other side and that we all have our respective grievances.

[Arlifrex-moon-guard (Arlifrex)]

That’s a lot of preaching for one sentence.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

@Vanaelia-moon-guard

@Amadis-draka

The Highborne quickly realized just how vulnerable they had become without the Well of Eternity. For the first time in memory, they began to die of starvation. Only the compassion of some primitive Humans living in the mountains kept the entire expedition from perishing in the winter’s fury.

Do we know who those humans were? Rather, the ancestors of? Gilneans? Alterac?

Interestingly enough, they appear to be the ancestors of both Alterac and Stromgarde. We first get more details about them in Chronicle: Volume I, Pages 126-127:

One of these generals was named Ignaeus. He and his people originally dwelled among the rugged slopes around the Alterac Mountains. Though considered uncouth and savege by many of the humans from other regions, Ignaeus and his northlanders were unmatched in their bravery and strength.

They also had a small passage in the Saga of the Valarjar in the Warrior Class Hall:

Strom’kar, the Warbreaker, Part Three


For weeks, Thoradin and his warriors struggled to conquer the rugged mountain people known as the Alteraci. Though the upstart king was confident he could subdue the tribe if given enough time, he knew the cost would be very high. To prevent unnecessary bloodshed, he changed his tactics.

Thoradin shed his battle armor and painted his chest with Arathi tribal symbols. With only Strom’kar in hand, he marched up the mountain and challenged the Alteraci leader, Ignaeus, to a duel.

Before long, Ignaeus emerged from the forest, skin dyed red with his own tribal marks, blade sharpened and hungry for death. He dwarfed Thoradin in size and strength, but the Arathi leader had other advantages. He had chosen the duel on a day when thick fog enveloped the mountains. Using the weather to his advantage, Thoradin eluded Ignaeus’s wild swings and disarmed his bigger foe.

Ignaeus was at Thoradin’s mercy, but the Arathi leader did not strike. He plunged Strom’kar into the damp earth and extended the hand of peace. On that day, he won the Alteraci to his side.

Saga of the Valarjar

But, what is interesting is on Chronicle: Volume I, Page 142:

Not long after the lords of Strom went north, the last living descendants of King Thoradin also left Arathor. Led by a member of Thoradin’s line named Faldir, they set off by sea and ventured far to the south, enticed by rumors of a lush, unplumbed land where they could make a new beginning.


The stories proved true. Thoradin’s descendants settled the land and founded the kingdom of Stromwind. Nestled among cliffs and boasting a natural protected harbor, the city-state established itself as a major power in the region.

Strom was left in the hands of a few ruling families too stubborn to abandon the old capital. Among them were the descendants of Ignaeus Trollbane, a general who had become legend during the Troll Wars. Over the years, these families rebuilt Strom’s crumbling infrastructure and renamed their capital Stromgarde.

[Vanaelia-moon-guard]

Thank you.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

It kind of makes the Arathi Warfront take on a funny twist when it’s Lady Liadrin vs. Danath Trollbane, with Liadrin trying to run Danath off his homeland when Danath’s ancestors are the only reason the Quel’dorei survived their journey through the mountains to found Quel’Thalas at all.

[anon95961490]

Why in the hell did they think Lady Liadrin deserved to be a Horde commander there is beyond me. I also love how for some reason there’s like 3 commanders that cycle in Arathi but it’s the same ones every time in Darkshore. That said, Turalyons appearance in Arathi is probably the most human paladin thing ever. “SCURRY FROM THE LIGHT VERMIN!”

[Anelaan-wyrmrest-accord (Anelaan)]

His lines when Liadrin is the Horde commander are pretty good.

Turalyon: What’s this… Horde invaders, with a paladin in command? What has this world come to?
Liadrin: You’ve been away for too long, Turalyon. The world’s moved on without you.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

The even weirder part is they already have voice work for Malfurion and Nathanos as leaders at the Darkshore Warfront, but never implemented it.

Though, as much fun as beating up Nathanos would be, a silver lining is we also avoid posts like “Malfurion’s not strong. I beat him down every week.”

[anon95961490]

That’s true, Malfurion is kind of too major a figure to be a warfront boss. I guess they realized they didn’t have enough relevant enough characters for the Warfront. I still would have liked something more than just the Warden vs Warden soap opera we got.