Where are you getting this? Where is this written?
I suspect thats how you IMAGINE them to be.
Oh sure there would be killing but not exactly how you describe it.
Human history is full of war and conquest but not all of them go into the “genocide” category.
Which ones? There are several.
You really need to source this information.
Okay, sure. Here we are:
So, yes, it is what I said:
Given the language, I am not assuming they weren’t killing. That’s obtuse.
Ok?! I’ve said the Elves should have left several times. That doesn’t mean it was right for the Trolls to attack without trying diplomacy.
I think the Trolls had a moral obligation to try diplomacy before attacking.
I’ve said this NUMEROUS times. The Trolls were mostly in the right.
You have a simplistic view if you’ve taken what I said as defending Invaders. The Amani can be in the right while still making mistakes like they did, it is a gradient. Instead you seem interested in trashing on the High Elves (who AGAIN, were in the wrong) while refusing to accept the mistakes of the Amani.
It was in chronicles. Which both had pictures, and Maps and descriptions. Alas I only have screenshots from it.
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/wow/images/7/7e/Mages_humains_d%C3%A9cha%C3%AEnent_leurs_pouvoirs_sur_les_trolls_Amani.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20170319163042&path-prefix=fr
Alongside of Elven sorcerers the human magi called upon their vast newfoundpowers. Instead of attacking individually, the magi did somethering unpredicted : they pooled their power and wove a single terrible spell. The Alterac mountains heaved and trembled in torrents of fire lashed down from the blood red sky. The energies engulfed the Amani ranks in searing conflagration. These sorcerous flames burned loa and troll alike from inside out.
Amnong the first of the Amani to be consumed in enchanted flamed was Jintha. Without their leader. The surviving trolls broke ranks and retreated north. The elves and humans hunted them down like a game, slaughtering every Amani combatant they could find.
It was though. If they conquested majority of territories and forced to dwell in tiny reserves, and still raided them occasionally to cull their numbers- like Elves did with Alleria being infamous of it. Then it is.
You answered yourself that there were quite some.
Posted that.
That sounds like its describing a battle rather than a genocidal mass execution.
No I am answering you in saying that places like Ashenvale and Darkshore were “conquered” with no genocides while Teldrassil wasn’t conquered. That was straight up genocide with no land or resource being the motivator.
You really should read your own sources.
It was yet again describing a battle.
Might be but if that was the case it would’ve been said that they slaughtedred them. What we know for sure is that elves slaughtered their path. While trolls only “attacked”.
They could, but it’s their thing too, they’re not perfect beings, they’re not beacon of morality and never even pretended to be one. They’re tribal society that is extremely territorial.
Lack of diplomacy and lack of willingness to share their land is not a justification for what happened to them.
I never denied that Amani made mistakes, what I was against was for people to justify their tragic fate for that while at the same time constantly justifying elves in their brutal take over.
This is nothing more than an intentionally dishonest attempt at pushing semantics.
Cool, you agree with me.
Then you agree with me twice, very cool.
I read this fantasy book that talked about this war that lasted for years.
Both sides fighting nonstop to the point that a thriving population was reduced to a few thousand with all areas of society being devoted to war.
With how the Amani are this would not surprise me.
The would keep sending wave after wave of trolls that would get massacred in the field.
The Humans and Elves didn’t need to pull a Teldrassil. The Amani would throw bodies into this meat grinder willingly.
You know the funniest thing about this? The actually connection between both of these? It’s that these were both done by people who are now the Horde.
The people who took the Eastweald (now known as the Plaguelands) from the Amani and renamed it Lordaeron, they’re the Forsaken now, and members of the Horde.
The High Elves? They’re Blood Elves now, also members of the Horde.
And most specifically Sylvanas, Undead High Elf Banshee Queen of the Forsaken.
Who started her career in the following way, as described in Chronicle: Volume III, Page 61:
This was the person the Darkspear accepted as their Warchief. Who the Darkspear followed into the War of the Thorns. As you yourself noted:
I wanted to contribute something about the Amani-Highelf conflict:
Basically, I’m starting from scratch:
The beginning of the conflict between these two races was created over 10,000 years ago, it only intensified later, or rather escalated.
But because of Azshara’s contract two POV’s
The POV of the Highborne was that they have every right to every country. This was not just a thought, it was a matter of course, a state of mind that the Highborne took and presented to them. So Azshara just took what she liked, whether it was sacred to the other people, whether it was vital to the other people, it was irrelevant, she took it and nobody could do anything about it, because it was the sacred right of Azshara and the Highborne to do it. As we know, all of Azshara’s mentality went around the palace and the night elf people, and only the simplest of the common people kept a non-alienated view.
When the high elves finally landed in Tirisfall - already visibly changed, by the way - they still have this attitude. Many of the Highborne even wanted to take humans as slaves or otherwise integrate them as servants, only Dath’Remar refused to do so.
The Amani POV’s are the ones that the land grab was a deeply traumatic experience, because they were powerless, they could do nothing. When such elves appeared, who were similar to those they were powerless against, and settled down after nearly 3000 years, they saw it as a necessary act to prevent the traumatic experience and in consequence they attacked
Thereupon the attack on the high elves began, and yes, the amani killed the high elves as well, because they finally began to kill every Amani on sight out of fear of the attacks. Thereupon the Amani also began to kill the high elves again. So the Highborne travelled through the Amani Empire and found an abandoned ruin that was not used by anyone and built Silvermoon on it. But only when the city was completely finished and even the well was planted, the Amani suddenly attacked in huge flocks. The high elves did not want to leave what they had created and defended themselves.
Thereupon they destroyed a 10 to 1 superiority and in this conflict the first borders were created, there were border conflicts even after that, but all in all to neglect.
That was Elf-Fan-Service, just for your information, but in this story neither highborn nor Amani per se were described as bad or incomprehensible actions were committed. Both POV’s are justified and also logical.
Then there was almost 4000 years of peace, with some conflicts between Ranger and Amani. The Zandalari finally united the divided Amani tribe and made war possible in the first place. They called the Loa, summoned powerful spells, and used the sheer superiority of the Amani to launch an all-powerful attack that the elves could not counter.
Nothing to oppose? Here’s a little trip to prove to you that this is not an Elven fan service. The elves certainly had more than 100 mages, even better trained, so they could have just as easily summoned a fire devil behind their safe Sunwell barrier and could have wiped out the Amani there. In a logical story it wouldn’t have needed humans for that.
So why did they make the war the way it was, now, to give the humans an epic introduction. Just like the trolls with the great aqir war, the humans with the great troll war were properly established and introduced. They were the heroes of the great Troll War, and Strom was the great mighty empire, the elves needed help, could not make it without the humans, and so on.
In this conflict, however, the Trolls were ready to slaughter every Elf - and later every Human. And btw, the trolls had been hunting humans for a long time, even before the elves arrived, the trolls were hunting humans for food or for fun, there was a lot of hate in the game before that, that’s why Strom settled so far south.
Only the great Troll War and the Amani Mindset laid the final foundation for their downfall, when one experienced what a danger they could be to ALL the Eastern Kingdoms by trying to wipe out entire races, they themselves became the target of this mindset by keeping them deliberately decimated by controlling their population.
Trolls were hunted not for fun - which is a dangerous undertaking, by the way - but so that the great Troll War and what happened back then could never happen again.
I agree that it is indeed messed up, but I never was arguing that Horde had nasty things on their concious.
Belves being in Horde and Zul’Jin ending as raidboss was unfortunately deffiniete end to the narration they wanted to tell.
And as you said, it was the elf who did it to other elves. So the legacy of conquest and lies (NB recruitment scenario) continues.
I was also critical of Vol’Jin for vouching for Sylvanas against his better judgement, just because of the vision he had. He should’ve suspect that something wasn’t right that out all people Los shown undead who is dealing with necromancy as way for survival.
It was obviously lazy meta device to justify her unlikely election, but in a way it tained the Vol’Jin’s legacy, as he himself pointed his successor, wether he was mislead or not.
And he also left tribe without any clues what to do in situation if he would decease. So while I don’t see them following orders to be stretchy since it was thier dying chieftain’s direct order to do that, I do believe they should’ve consult as a whole the direction they want to take as their tribe.
I think that writers didn’t have any clear plan what to do with them, the lack of attention to details and overall how they handled this situation speaks volumes to me.
Trolls believe and are convinced that the great spirits cannot be wrong. They are willing to die for it. So it is logical that Vol’jin believed this vision.
Vol’Jin was seasoned Shadow hunter. And during the revision of his death he did say that “Many things felt wrong that day”. So he being experienced SH who already communed with various Loa, and being the champion of Bwonsamdi who has very clear attitude against the undead + his own gut feeling that something wasn’t right that Should’ve ring a bell.
Obviously if he didn’t have a vision he would likely give reigns back to Thrall or someone he actually trusted.
And I know that the vision was put there purely because they wanted “Warchief Sylvanas” without her actually working to earn this title.
Pity, but what was done was done.
And that makes him infallible? A lot of characters have been made usable for the plot and honestly, Vol’Jin is another thing that’s less character or immersion-breaking, because trolls believe in the spirits and if they whisper something (there was more than one) in a situation like that, you believe it as troll.
The Darkspear did not only follow Sylvanas into the War of the Thorns. One of them carried out the burning of Teldrassil themself:
Nathanos turned without a word and motioned to the siege crews.
It happened fast. Faster than Saurfang could comprehend.
A troll mage spread fire across the payloads, and with a pull of a lever on half a dozen siege engines, the Horde flung death into the air.
A Darkspear Troll, doing to the Night Elves what you claim is identical to what was done to the Amani.
I already elaborated why I think it didn’t match up.
And he did it because it was order. He didn’t initiate it himself nor he stepped ahead to do it for giggles, he did it because he was ordered to do that by Sylvanas. The Horde shamans were keeping the flames spreading through the tree.
Thoradin was king of the Humans. The Humans were just following his orders against the Amani as well.
Convenient how you will justify genocide if a Troll is following orders to do it.
The difference is that it was Horde who did genocide and not this Darkspear mage. The Horde in it’s entirety AS A FACTION.
And I never questioned that they commited Genocide.
And I never questioned that what they did was wrong.
However in this particular case it was just one Darkspear mentioned. I did War of Throrns myself and what I noticed was that there were no Darkspear units all the way through.
So they were shoved in the book- in a form of one mage.
So No
I didn’t do that at all.
At least we cleared up this point now:
Did we figure out that was a Darkspear and not Shatterspear? I remember someone asking (in another thread? here?) and no one was sure.