Yet I wouldn’t stop playing because of how professions were back then because they were still easy to grind. For me like I said it’s a time problem. There’s just an amount of time I’m willing to lose to play the game how I want.
I don’t feel the game has changed to make it easier to min/max. On the contrary since legion it has become harder because of all the grinds.
But it has changed to be more balanced. And yes you might not like how Blizzard balance stuff, I don’t like it. So are min/maxers really winning from Blizzard design? I’d say no by far no.
Do you know what an elitist is? Being in favor of RPG elements is the opposite of elitism. You’re kinda grasping at straws making up a counter-term.
Covenants aren’t a choice akin to picking a spec. It’s much more identity oriented than that. When you pick a class, you commit to that class’ spells, aesthetics, and even its balance. You could make yourself pick the best class for your role according to the meta, or you could just pick what you like. Covenants are that kind of choice. You’re picking an identity for your hero, with its own strengths, weaknesses, utility, and aesthetics.
What you’re trying to say is how the term is used on the forums. Not what it really means.
An elitist is a snob.
You’re snobing “meta-slaves” because you think you’re better than them.
Yet I still disagree because of the time commitment it would cause to me to maintain more characters to play 1 class like I used to.
Yeah reducing how much loot you get from dungeons making it so you are basically pigeonholed into one aspect of the game is definitely going to bring new players in and not drive players away. Ion needs to go back to playing eq since that is obviously what he desperately wants.
No min maxer complained about professions we just went blacksmithing jc and were done with it. Professions didn’t hard cap us in other areas of the game like covenants are going to.
It’s up to you how you want to play the game, but frankly if you’re so obsessed with numerical optimization that it sabotages your enjoyability of RPG elements, then yeah we’re gonna poke fun at you. It’s just an RPG game.
A game that never needed to make choices like that since Vanilla. People in Vanilla just didn’t know how to play the game so they didn,t know how to make gold to switch spec how they want. We see this in Classic, there’s people with thousands of gold.
Yes when trying your best is seen as bad is what people seems stuck on these days. Sure makes sense. People have to attack you to bring you to their level.
I play many rpgs, and I have played wow for many years.
If you think some minor rep that will be gone by next expansion and that are passives agressives because they don’t want to let you switch is something very rpg like then I’m sorry for you. Letting us earn all those powers and grind them would actually have been more rpg, or letting us destroy them.
No we didn’t. We lost them because of poor design and people didn’t take them.
I never saw a single person claiming this. I saw people stating, correctly, that a Prot Spec that could DPS more then the two DPS specs wasn’t good design.
Sorry you’re wrong here. They pretty much all want the game to improve and get better. What they don’t want is for there to be perceived and real massive grinds in order to get to that point. Most of them would like to see classes and specs work great and feel great without having to rely on borrowed power to be functional.
In pretty much every actual Hardcore and cutting edge team, ML wasn’t a problem. The problem was the casual players who advertised themselves as “hardcore” and funneling loot to their friends.
Every single high end player i saw complained at length about how stupid Benthic gear was. I didn’t see a single player from Limit or Method or MDI say “Man i sure love gambling and high RNG”. Not one.
Most players don’t care about the most efficient gearing paths, or lack thereof. They just care about whether or not they’re having fun. Do you honestly think someone who’s level 20 their first time through WoW will care if M+ loot isn’t as prominent as it used to be?
Also, I really don’t see a huge issue with that. M+ is still going to be a fantastic avenue for gear acquisition.
The difference this time is that they wont be able to change to X covenant when their guide tells them X covenant is better for m+ or a raid boss.
Instead they will BE FORCED to learn that you can beat bosses and do high m+ without the need of the meta covenant.
Min maxers will always put more effort in aka level 4 of each, just like they spammed 1000 islands in bfa and how they made new chars to get a bis legendary in bfa
Min maxers will always go through ridiculous degrees to min max therefore a game cannot be balanced around them unless you want to ruin the experience for others.
Those individuals cannot dictate game design else the game feels terrible for the99%, which is why they are focusing more on RPG experience, fun single player systems instead of obsessing over performance.
And they balance the game well enough so every spec can do mythic bosses and m15s, now if someone does m29s, then yes, that person will need min maxing.
But the game doesnt revolves around world first/m29s which is why many classes at that level are not even viable and highly imbalanced comps is the only way to do them.
Like some people have a millions sets in their bags rn?
Yet I am not since I use the same build for m+ and mythic bosses and casual pvp and am doing just fine
theres always going to be an option that does the ‘best’ in X content.
and depending on what content you play (PvP, raid, M+) if trying to get through the higher levels you want to be able to push as much as you can.
sure, playing the “non-Meta” build is nice. but when it becomes the difference in beating a +20 or failing it, or beating a M raid boss or hitting his enrage its gonna start being a problem.
its gonna feel annoying, if 18 people in your raid team are doing as much as they can to optimize themselves and the other two arent. what inevitable happens when you start hitting that point where you need to squeeze out more damage before enrage or in a burn phase is those people will be sat, for player who are doing better.
its going to feel bad to fail a high key run because 1 person is playing sub optimally.
alot of higher content is alot of ‘skin of your teeth’ win sometimes, especially in prog.
it could lead to a positive change trying to remove the “must be the best” mindset, but not if the content is encouraging those thought processes
Edit: i’m not against trying to remove that mindset, i just think its gonna take a bit more than “heres so many options its going to be impossible to build your character to be best at everything”
You know very well that if covenants became talents the toxic wannabe elite problem would be even worse since they would change them for a m+, every single raid boss or pvp.
That would be ok if they community wasnt filled with toxic wannabe elitists who pretend they are world first raiders/m+ers while they are doing mythic months after its launch or at m20s rn.
These people dont need meta, they act as if they are doing m29s and need it but they dont, and more importantly that mindset is pushed towards others where they refuse to invite or force people to play a way they dont want because it is meta.
That mentality of wannabe elites needs to be eradicated, and a step to the right direction is FORCING THEM to be sub optimal in some situations thanks to the covenant system and learn you can do all wow non world first content without meta.
The community toxicity is why exactly covenants are locked, if the community was decent and let people play whatever spec and build they enjoyed without discrimination or werent forced by others to play something they dont enjoy because “it does more dps though” then in that case covenants wouldnt be hard to switch.
But you made your bed by refusing the address the wannabe elitists community problem of WoW and devs realized they are the ones to try fix it since the community will happily bow down to the status quo.
You are correct, but the WoW community is infested with wannabe elitists that believe a meta covenant is needed to do mythic bosses or a m15.
Meta is needed for world first mythic raids and m+ aka 29-30s rn, nothing else in wow requires meta.
What are you even talking about, having a connection to a main and never changing it will always be better because then you ll have a ton of 475 gear which allows you to even have multiple fun builds on the same character which is impossible for people who might change mains every few months.
i cant and wont argue that, i agree. the main issue is the way it has a trickle down effect on the community, and that i feel is going to be hard to break.
good, woe and misery to the poopsocker
woe and misery to the twitch zoomer who thinks “i MUST copy what the absolute top 1% of players are doing”
i think though a lot of the meta slave issue is that some talents are pretty much just either too good or it’s decent, but just that your other two choices are just terrible. or that one just barely edges out over another, and that is enough for people to automatically just disregard it as being bad.
Exactly, watching wannabe elites who do 15-20s, talk about the tank 100 m+ keys aka 29s-30s done by what class and comp and how some specs are trash there, while I remind you, they are doing 15s which are absolutely NOTHING like a 30. They act as if they are the ones doing top 100 keys and behaving like that which of course leads to toxicity against anyone not bending over to play fotm/meta.
That mentality needs to be eradicated, I know most people have a hard time grasping the idea of “change the community/culture” but I believe covenants are an attempt to do that, to teach players that you dont need meta covenant to actually succeed in WoW because it is clear that many people dont know that.
I honestly believe covenants would be something you could change easily if the community wasnt like this, but since no attempt is made by the community itself to fix it and instead you have streamers going “you have to be trolling to not pick venthyr”, then clear I feel the devs realized that they are the only ones that can and have the power to ATTEMPT to change the community, it is an attempt and I support any such attempts since they are designed to fix a problem instead of ignore it.
Ehhhh, we’ll see. Before blizz eventually caves, there’s going to be a best “general” build for each class, that’s going to posted on icy veins and wowhead, and people will flock to those builds. I’d be willing to bet in higher numbers too, since the current system is so inflexible.
While I think you are putting to much faith in Blizz balancing, and chances are that won’t necessarily be the case. There’s a good chance, for multiple specs/classes, a singular covenant will be the best, perhaps more split between pve/pvp, but maybe not specific enough for M+ or raids.
I mean, think back to the talent tree days. I look at this in a similar way. Yes, there are a lot things you can choose, you can build these fun wonky builds, but there’s going to be a “best” and when someone smarter than us figures out that best, most are going to flock to it. Even back in the classic days with skill trees and high respec costs, there was a best build that most people would go to. It’s just going to end up being the exact same situation we are in now, except it won’t be as flexible.
