Terrible state of TWW M+ and how to save it

Gameplay Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
101

The carry factor is what makes me wonder if IO score should not be based on the run but on personal handling of things in the run.

But then, I think I am just starting to become a bit jaded, as yes, I do have a lot of overtime keys, and have had more then my fair share of keys that have had some one leave. But from seeing my runs, what leads to bricking is not always on me, just a few examples:

  1. DPS either ignoring adds, or killing them at the same time, on the Skardyn boss in SV
  2. Bowling Ball of Doom not being directed down the clear path, even if I tank the second boss of DB in a way that it is clear which way ti should go
  3. fox on Mistcaller in mists not being kited away from the group or CCd (and keep in mind, kiting it even a bit might make it easier to CC)

It is just that, in M+, there are a lot of things that if ONE messes up, the group pays the price. Maybe the biggest change needed for M+ is to knock that off, if one person messes up a mechanic, only they should pay the price. Like I should not be frozen by the fox if it is not kited away from the boss/group,

if it is indeed the group messing up, like with the adds in SV, then sure the group pays the price for that.

102

All they did was move the problem a level down. Great for people who were stuck doing 8s instead of 9s, but it just made it so that now people are stuck on 7s instead of 8s. The problem is still there… it’s just in a different level now.

That’s all anybody wants. Nobody sits there and invites ilvl-appropriate people for what they want to run if they can help it. They want to maximize their chances of timing the run, and we even incentivize this behavior by making +2 and +3 a thing. The harder your group hits, the more likely you’re going to time and even get those extras… so why invite anything but people that are going to do that for you? It’s a design problem when the conditions at play allow people to run their groups that way without never having to make a compromise because there are so many people that are stuck where they are that they are incessantly grinding keys they’ve already done instead of being able to move up, which causes a problem for everybody lower than them.

I’m doing 7s when I “shouldn’t be”, which means I’m eating a spot that somebody lower than me should be in instead of me (or 6s for Ara’kara and Grim Batol, but I don’t run those when I can run 7s for other dungeons). If enough people are in this spot at 7s and 8s, then we have gridlock for progression, and that’s an abject failure of design.

I know the solution for me is to run my own keys and I’ve never argued otherwise, but all I’m saying is from a design perspective, people play the game within the parameters that they are given and the parameters this season are such that this is the end result. They’ve already admitted flaw in the design by having to move Gilded crests down a level, but I hope after having done that, they’re not sitting there like “Yeah, this is fine now.” They may not be able to make bigger changes this season, but they have a lot to think about for season 2.

1 Like
103

what’s your btag? I’ll add you and help

1 Like
104

This is impossible to do because there are too many variable to account for. IO doesn’t mean anything except for showing another person your experience in the current season. It doesn’t equate to skill.

Pretty much, but people are short sighted or only care about themselves when they make demands for things. As soon as they moved it to +8 we had people demanding it drop again for +7.

ilvl is mostly irrelevant when group forming. It’s at the bottom of considerations.

  1. Group composition
  2. IO
  3. Highest timed run for the dungeon you are running
  4. ilvl
3 Likes
105

I’ve found of late that if you want to have the highest chance of timing your key, try and only invite people 200- 300+ points above you. It may take longer to fill, but usually worth it. I’m usually all about giving someone a shot at improving their score by inviting at your io or below, but it’s far too risky this season if you care about pushing your own key.

106

Yeah same with me… Reached KSM plainly by Pugging, but at 2054 ish Ilvl, I am now stuck most likely at 619 when all is said and done. Can’t get into 8’s coz ppl with higher Ilvl and IO are farming those crests. I cap my crest for runes every week. I want to tank and I have tanked M+3’s but I am not the best tank and don’t want to ruin other ppl’s key so, I guess I should be content. Not sure if anything will change. Not really venting, just observation. Not interested in Mythic gear, but would be nice to cap out my Hero gear due to OCD…

107

"Let’s see what is wrong with it first:

massively overtuned difficulty (that includes many things like tuning, dungeon design, bugs, mechanics overlaps, affixes etc)
extreme shortage of tanks and healers (it’s pretty clear that massive nerfs to those roles only made situation much worse)
rewards/effort ratio is off (too much effort required to get rewards that are same or worse than in previous seasons)
class balance (just look at BM hunters are theirs zero to no AOE…)"

Let’s just start here, I agree M+ is an issue and must be fixed however I do NOT think that all the player base deserves to get handouts of Mythic track gear.

Point 1, 3, and 4 all can be fixed relatively easily. To start the tuning is fine (other than orbs super pumping boss in situations where a frontal stops you from nabbing them), the issue is in point 3 and 4.

To fix M+ first off all Hero track gear should be able to be upgraded to max without stepping foot in Mythic Raid and crests from 4-7 M+s.

Completion of a 8 should reward one piece of Mythic gear in vault (since this is closer to in line with how Mythic gear was given prior, yet still harder).

Crest cost to make crafted gear needs a 25% to 35% decrease for crafting enchanted crests.

Blizzard needs to be a bit more okay with breaking/making classes OP with hotfixes when you have classes like BM Hunter who cant AOE to save their lives. Once race to world first is over, making classes super OP in an attempt to balance the game isn’t a big deal. This goes for dps/heals/tanks.

With this most casuals can get their characters easily up to 626, and it’ll allow those who possess the skills the gear to be able to get mythic track gear from either vault in an 8. Not all people should get myth track gear, do not make the hardest content worse for the casual player base. Bring the highest ilvl casuals can get to up, but they/we don’t need to be awarded the best gear in the game for doing content that’s easy.

For those who are crazy at M+ and doing over 10s, they really should be rewarded with Myth track gear on drops. That and get these people a hall of fame board on the official website! Please.

3 Likes
108

Tank your own key, you can make groups pretty fast. Breaking keys is normal for new tanks. Behind a famous surgeon is a graveyard.

109

Why should most casuals get 626 gear? Do most casual players who raid get 626?

1 Like
110

I do have to say, from my experience so far, I’ve never seen so many failed groups in a season before. Even at the +10 level, I would say only 1/3 of groups actually complete without someone ragequitting or ninjalogging.

111

I know, but the issue I am seeing is IO does not relate to skill, yet it is one of the things people seem to equate to skill. I know it is impossible to base it around personal handling, but at the same time I would like a better measurement of if one can handle the dungeon.

Part of this is just cause I know or feel like I can handle the higher keys but I also feel dragged down because the groups I get into can have that one player.

112

I don’t see this being a problem when we are only a month into a season where we started 34 ilvl below cap with no tier, embellishments, or trinkets. The majority of people running 10s are still 15+ ilvls below cap. That’s more than 50% of the standard season-season ilvl increase of 26.

113
  1. Remove Challenge’s peril affix.
  2. Remove downgrade key when you failed to time or group falls apart.
  3. More tuning for classes that are underperforming in M+.
1 Like
114

Agreed, but if it has to be in, scale it according to key level

No to failing to time, yes to group falling apart but only for the first 3 times

Agreed

115
  1. Group comp and the specs you are playing
  2. IO and ilvl
  3. Highest timed run

For example, Resto Druid applies for +11 Ara-Kara and the group can wait for Resto Shaman. Very few Resto Druids have higher than mixed +11 and +12 (you can check them on raider io).

Both IO and ilvl are equally important. 619ilvl DPS won’t get an invite over 626ilvl DPS for +10 and higher.

Gearing from M+ is not my top 3 problem. I feel that Blizzard randomly put an intern to design dungeons and affixes (they should have caught the obvious issues with affixes earlier). The dungeon pool and dungeon design are what I think TWW S1 is in a terrible state of M+.

116

its need a change. I am so sick and tired of trying to get into a group that will keep declining me and when I try to form a group to get a key done and ends up failing due to either failed to time it or player keeps leaving. I get really angry when I see my key keep getting downgrade that discourage me to used my key and I think it is time we need do a change to m+. I don’t give a flying F about 5% elite players they can go touch grass for all I care. If were up to me, I would just retired M+ all the together it out live its usefulness.

117

if your failing your own key, than you need to have better judgment on your comp and who you pick? For Example, Grim Batol, I play a holy priest, i need someone who can decurse, so i pick a class that can decurse. I make sure i ask the individual that i need them to decurse. than you get your lust and a battle rez. High IO atleast means they have experience, HIGH IO > over ilvl

118

Every top 1% player comes to these threads and tells you everything is fine.

The game is balanced around them, lol, then they come to tell you they think it’s okay, but wait it actually is a bit hard once you hit 12, they all talk about how the keys they’re doing are a bit hard or this or that could be changed, while completely brushing off heroic raiders struggling to PUG 8-10s lol. “Those are easy, just press w and don’t stand in fire”

M+ should be challenging but doable up to getting portals and myth track vaults for AOTC/2500 io players, the game is completely balanced around CE/3k+ io players.

I’m done playing it, and I’m done subbing once I have my AOTC in the next week, M+ used to be my favorite game mode, I’d play it daily for hours filling my vault and then slowly progging my gear to be decked in mythic by the end of the season.

Hope Blizzard keeps the lights on and a good product out with their only 15,000 subscribers being mythic raiders.

1 Like
119

What i don’t get is: Why do you think 10s are so much harder now than in dragonflight?

120

10’s are harder than they were in DF except maybe Season 1 and that is more of a debate on which dungeon versus which.

The main thing is that while some affix combos could be argued to be harder than a 10 in TWW at the end of the day having Fort and Tyranical for every single 10 you do generally speaking makes it considerably harder. and Peril insures that most groups will be pigeon holed into +1 their keys at best.

You could +2 a lot of 10’s in DF, I almost never run into people who have +2 10’s in TWW except certain dungeons like Dawnbreaker and City of Echoes but even then rarely.