You will be able to tank just about everything. But not always the best tank for the job. You will be a fantastic ad tank.
I donât give two craps about p-servers because they monkeyâd with bosses, mechanics, stat weights, gear, and everything in-between.
âŚuhhh?
Breastplate of the Bold has 33 Stamina and 19 Defense.
Breastplate of the Righteous has 30 Stamina and 20 Defense.
Combat Expertise alone makes up for the deficit in such a small difference.
Things like Felsteel are pure EH/Defense chunks of gear, like Thick Clefthoof for Druids, and offer zero in the way of TPS/DPS, plus they donât take up all your slots anyway.
Same thing with stuff like PanzarâThar from Nightbane, one piece isnât the make-break between the two, and compared to Justicar, the Paladin only loses 3 Stamina, gains 60 Armor, and loses 3 Defense. Warbringer vs Justicar is even sillier, with the same Armor, same Stamina, and one point of Defense in favor of the Paladin.
There just isnât this huge gulf you keep making it out to be if we get the Sunwell tuning of all gear.
5man set alone gives you 110 Spell Power. Even if you forego Spell Power on all other slots in favor of raw Stamina and Defense and only slapped on a 5man level weapon like Continuum Blade, thatâs 231 Spell Power without a single enchant, gem, buff, consumable, etc, from only 6 pieces of gear.
I have no doubts you played on p-servers, but what youâre saying just doesnât actually comport with what is needed for gearing in T4 content, or what you can actually wear in said content with the end-patch itemization pass.
Theyâre good for trash and some encounters. In TBC you generally benefit from having a variety of tanks, and very often need at least two, so with the right gear you shouldnât have a hard time finding a spot.
That said, gearing for raids as a pally is slightly more difficult than gearing as a war.
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Prot can tank Illidan but itâs certainly more difficult. I definitely wouldnt list that as a fight where they shine
Well you can keep telling yourself whatever you want, but if you wear full on paladin gear pre-raid you will probably have in the ball park of 8.5-9k health. You also probably will not hit defense cap. Where as warriors are going to have 10-12k depending on trinket choices and if they are Tauren. Tanks with Sub 10k health unbuffed are not even worth considering for raids honestly unless you are desperate. Things hit very hard in TBC, your health goes up and down like a yo-yo.
You clearly do not know what you are talking about in any practical sense.
Most warriors are going to wear Jade Skull Breastplate or Breastplate of the Warbringer. You are already struggling to hit 490, you need every bit of stamina and defense rating you can grab, Personally I always go with Breastplate of the Warbringer since it gets me what I need along with some hit rating.
Paladin pre-raid bis is Jade Skull Breastplate FYI
You keep banging on about combat expertise, yea, that is good and all but it still did not make up the deficit that paladins had on their base health, it also did not make up for the lack of health on their gear. It got them a bit closer, but did not fully make up the gap.
Even with the nerfed versions of many bosses, you still need health, stamina is king in TBC. Pre-raid, you are sacrificing a lot of spell power to hit the stamina requirements. Itemization is still a thing.
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Basic math says youâre hilariously wrong.
Moving on
LOL
No.
I was a prot paladin up to and through BT. You will be tanking trash and be an offtank, however, it isnât a meme spec.
You also probably will not hit defense cap.
This is completely wrong, I was able to hit it fine before even running Kara.
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That was an out of context quote, you can indeed hit defense cap, but he is talking about hitting it in the paladin dungeon set with stacking paladin gear and not wearing gear with high defense and stamina.
Hitting defense cap and getting enough stamina to survive, before Kara you have to make a lot of sacrifices, the sacrifice you make is threat stats. Threat stats tend to be the first to go, and as you get T4 gear, you can start to remove the pure defense pieces and put on threat pieces. But that guy seems to think that you can just get 490 defense in dungeon set blues with spell power while maintaining a high amount of health and 490 defense.
With so much time passing and peoples knowledge of the game now adays I donât see why a Prot Pally canât main tank in TBC. Theyâll do just fine.
It really depends on how blizzard does things, if it is a very nerfed state with them putting minimal effort it, prot paladins will be more able to main tank, but they are still lacking important âsave the dayâ cooldowns.
They are not the tanking gods of never die and generate threat that they become in Wrath of the Lich King. They are missing a lot of utility and functionality. Their taunt is wonky, but can be sorted out with a macro, though it is not a perfect solution. They do not have an AOE taunt, they rely on their threat generation to hold threat, an overzealous warlock or mage can pull off them (3 mobs is not 4 or 10, as an example). it is on a 15 second CD and requires mana. They have no practical life saving cooldown. Using the 2 paladin bubbles will get people killed.
They also tend to use less avoidance stats and have a few thousand less health than a warrior. Their incoming damage while consistent, might be an issue if things are going wrong on progression. Say a healer dies to a mechanic and other healers start to run oom and cannot cancel cast as well. There are a lot of factors.
Can it work, yes, early on, it tends to be putting an octagonal peg into a round hole, with a bit of extra effort it can work but it is not the perfect fit like some will want to make it out to be. It is also not like trying to stuff a square peg into a round hole ether.
Reading the paladin talents tree, it seems paladin tank has more +% HP bonus than warriors. They also have the one called Argent Defender that reduces damage taken when below 30% HP. I believe that makes up for the difference in HP pool
Gearing is my concern. They will need a caster weapon, and the tier set lacks some defensive stats compared to the warrior.
While what you are saying is true, itemization on gear does not make up for the difference, paladins will still have less health than warriors, because the item budget for each piece of gear, does not allow for it to have as high stamina as well as int, spell power, block, parry, dodge ect. Equivalent item level gear for a paladin will have lower defensive stats on it, to make up for all the other primary and secondary stats on that gear.
The way paladins get around this early on, is to simply wear warrior gear with no paladin stats on it, and have lower spell power.
The bosses in raids tend to completely bypass argent defender(hence why it was changed in Wrath to allow you to not die on a cool down if your health hit zero)
When bosses are hitting you for 4-6k and early on you have a 10-13k buffed health pool, it tends to jump that 35% health number on occasion. Later on when you are crush immune and have a much larger health pool, it is not as much of an issue, but when you are in pre-raid trying to tank Gruul and he is hitting you and your off tank for more than half their health pool a swing, and you are not at crush immunity, it can be a real issue if that fight starts to drag on due to shatter deaths.
Maybe they will bring in a very nerfed version of Gruul and it will be a joke, but he can really start to hit, VERY hard if the fight drags on long enough. Long enough to literally 1 shot you from 100% to dead, and 2 shot you in a matter of a second if parry haste happens.
Heâs also forgetting that pservers have massive damage buffs on bosses. At the levels we will get the damage protadins will be more than fine. They also do not have lower health. THey have the health of a warrior with last stand up all the time.
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T6 warrior is bottom tank, and since weâre going with final patch and definitely not playing buffed pserver raids, prot paladin is good investment for any guild, capable of MT, OT, trash tanking, dungeon tanking⌠whatever you need them for.
Issue with warrior is their aoe aggro is abyssmal, and they can only perform MT tanking well enough
Most guilds will probably get 1 prot pala 1 bear 1 prot warrior and call it a day. 1 of each.
None of this is true.
In most cases the Stamina is the same between both Paladin and Warrior pieces, along with the Armor. In the few cases where Warriors get 1-3 more points of Stamina on the baseline gear, it doesnât matter because having an additional 10% Stamina makes up for it and then some, and doesnât count a single enchant, consumable buff, gem, or other source of Stamina which still favors the Paladin over the Warrior
So in terms of Effective Health, which is the combination of Health and guaranteed damage reduction from Armor and stances, Paladins are strictly better than Warriors.
This point is also completely nonsense, but I wanted to highlight it.
Spell Power on Paladin Plate is the same as Agility or Strength on Warrior Plate. With the exception of pieces very early on that are heavily stacked with JUST Stamina, Defense, and some Avoidance stat, thereâs no âtrade offâ between the offensive stats and the defensive stats allocated. If you were talking about Haste/Expertise/Hit, youâd have a point, but Warriors have to make the same trade off on those pieces as Paladins, except Paladins donât have nearly the same Hit/Expertise requirements thanks to a very different ability profile and the freebie Hit/Expertise talents they get.
Finally, Paladins actually get better total stats than Warriors with T6 and onward gear.
Lightbringer Waistguard vs Onslaught Waistguard
- Armor is the same
- Stamina is the same
- Both have a single socket, Pally gets blue for Dodge bonus, Warriors gets red for Stamina bonus
- Pally gets 4 more Defense
- Warrior gets 10 more Dodge
- Pally gets 20 Shield Block Rating, Warrior gets 56 Shield Block Value
- Pally gets 33 Spell Damage, Warrior gets 28 Expertise
Paladins are strictly better off with this setup of stats than the Warrior is, even though both belts are fantastic in general.
The wristguards are even worse because the Warrior gets Defense/Dodge/Parry whereas the Paladin gets Defense/Dodge/Shield Block and Spell Power. The Warrior gets literally zero threat stats on their gear whereas the Paladin misses out on 6 or so Shield Block Rating to get a sizable chunk of threat from 25 Spell Power.
But even if we donât consider that deep into the gearing and look at entry Kara stuff, we find that Paladins have epic bracers at ilvl 110 that have Spell Power and defensive stats, but there are generic bracers at ilvl 115 that have neither Strength nor Spell Power. However, if we assume the Paladin uses the 5man bracers over the Karazhan drop, and the Warrior sockets a +12 Stamina gem in hisâŚ
The Paladin is only barely behind the Warrior in terms of EH using a lower ilvl piece and still has threat stats and more defense than the Warrior.
Just⌠stop.
Yuuuuup.
He keeps acting like Paladins are running around with 30 Stamina on items vs Warriors having 50 Stamina which is just⌠weirdâŚ
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Prot paladins can not be Off tanks in TBCâŚthey must be getting hit to gain mana and pump out threat
He probably means OTâing in the sense of picking up adds on fights like tidewalker or alar
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I mean⌠thatâs what Mana Potions are for anyway, so it isnât like Paladins become entirely useless when not actively Tanking, and you arenât exactly pumping a load of abilities either.
You are weaker to be sure, but the Rage tanks are also bad when not taking direct damage. Only Druids really fare super well while not taking direct damage because theyâre super duper Rage efficient and free Rage from critical hits makes it easy to build and use abilities.
The only fight I can think of where this matters at all is Bloodboil and even then, you just have the current MT just⌠stop⌠attacking⌠so you can swap. When you get swapped on that fight you still have the debuff stacked up so damage will keep ticcing and healing will still provide mana. All the other Tank swap encounters are either Taunt swaps (like Brutallus) or there is persistent AoE damage anyway (like Void Reaver or Mother Shaz).
More importantly in Wrath, it was changed to be no longer leapfroggable. A passive with no guarantee that it did anything was replaced with a passive that gave the Paladin something like 9% more EH in the worst case, IIRC. The cheat death mechanic was a nice bonus.
i tanked it just fine.
you cant stance-dance the Archimonde fear.