TBC Dual Spec

WoW Classic Cataclysm Classic Discussion
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Dual spec is a bad idea. It will change the TBC raiding meta to dual pve spec swapping mid raid, which both reduces spec identity and directly nerfs certain classes and buffs others.

For instance, part of an Elemental Shaman’s spec ID is predicated on being able to offheal in the same spec on fights that require additional healers. Dual spec means that Ele Shaman must hold a Resto off spec, nerfing the healer utility inherent to an Elemental spec.

Another example is dual spec buffs prot warriors, who can now swap to fury on the fly. This is a direct nerf to feral druids, who are able to DPS and tank in the same spec.

In other words, it drastically changes the meta, while also eliminating the cost benefit analysis of bringing, for instance, a prot paladin, who is bis at aoe tanking and nothing else besides. This makes raid comp building less, not more, interesting.

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266

Give us dual spec. Literally only had positives in every way. People complaining even know their argument is baseless. They just like to complain.

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Don’t do dual spec. Literally only has negatives in every way. People advocating for it even know their argument is baseless. They just like to have everything handed to them.

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Agree fully. It would change the entire feeling of TBC.

Besides, the Dual Spec fanboys will get what they want when Wrath Classic comes out in just one expansion.

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The problem is this isn’t vanilla classic. That elemental Shaman will have to already carry a rest set of +healing gear (because they won’t get enough from +dmg gear to be worth it). They won’t have any of the throughput talents of resto. Or reduced mana cost. They will be a gimped healer that the raid would only use if the boss is on farm. They will either make that shaman go resto or swap them out for the fight.

Raids do require more utility now with the additional debuff slots and utility that is brought by the different specs. Elemental is brought for the spell power and crit totems for casters. But no raid is going to make the elemental shaman a healer. And elemental shamans can’t heal dungeons on normal or heroic.

Again it’s not like vanilla wow where a shaman could go half and half in resto and elemental to hybrid. A lot of specs need their last point in their spec tree to be viable. So the elemental shaman won’t have the mana regen totem utility for healers, they won’t have the extra throughput. They won’t have earth shield. And most of their talents are wasted since they won’t be dpsing but healing instead.

The vast majority of classic has shown us that everyone is a cookie cutter form of what some bis list and talent guide told them. Sure there are people who don’t use guides but they are not the majority of people who are doing the raid content you are saying will be changed.

Go to the wow logs page. Look at any class or spec and the talents / items they use and tell me just how hybrid and different they are.

Your argument is great in theory but in practice the player base doesn’t follow those rules. You can’t argue for the raiding meta by using examples of things that don’t happen in the raiding meta. And the more casual non super hardcore guilds won’t require people to dual spec anyway so then the point is moot.

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Not to be mean I disagree There’s a very big difference between dual spec and having every single thing handed to you you still have to get together with people and you It’s not as if this is retail and were queuing up.

And never even leaving a major city you still want to go out in quest you still have to go out and get into groups for group quests and you still have to interact with people dual spec does not change that interaction.

As far as a gold sink The problem with that argument is very simple it’s only going to hurt the people that don’t have hundreds of thousands of gold It’s going to hurt the average player that doesn’t.

Let alone if you’ve got that much money how often are you really even going to be respecting as far as it affecting the raid environment If that were the case if it’s really going to be one of those then let me ask you this.

Why didn’t we see people going oh Hey let me open a A port To a major city make ax people take that port old go back to their trainer and respect for × Fight.

And then have warlocks summon you back if that’s really what it would come down to if it was really needed that badly then that’s what it would become.

And if the 1 in 10% really one have you have to specific specs for ax fight maybe maybe that’s 1 or 2 encounters maybe So I don’t see your argument there either OK yeah it would be much easier for people to do that.

But again how many people are actually going to do that maybe the top 10% and no it’s not the same thing as world buffs either Because the reality is world bus gave you an extra at least 38% To your stats Obviously I’m estimating but still.

How’d much difference is an alternative a spec Going to bring That you weren’t already going to have OK you have one fight person switch to a shadow priest for a fight OK.

That’s one encounter The other point everyone says as it destroys class Identity Well 1st off you’re not talking about class identity your talk about spec identity.

Whether I be arms Fury For profit I’m still a Warrior Whether I’m affliction Destruction Or demonology I’m still A-war lock.

And not to be mean I don’t find this huge difference when I look at someone and I say oh I feel so different because I am willing a 2 hander and hes dual wielding.

OK sure My 1st and only thought is O he picks to go demonology and I picked to go affliction if my off spec is something different OK fine.

Let alone a lot of specs are only going to have one specific spec they’re going to go let’s be honest most Where likes are probly going to be going SLS Why because it’s broken.

Most hunters are going to be going beast mastery Maybe you’ll have 1 or 2 go a survival For The D buff And maybe for whatever reason you may or may not have a marksman hunter in the group because.

Depending on the level of gild the year end my point is dual spec does not destroy class identity OK.

It just doesn’t And quite frankly I think it’s silly when people say it Because whether or not you can still say your main spec is Destruction, Fury, Arms, Shadow, Combat, And so on.

You just have an option for an off spec that’s all that means so And as far as the argument O it was in in the game back then so it shouldn’t be now.

I’m sorry that stupid We had that argument and classic look how that turned out quite frankly I think there should have been changes in classic.

Because I’ll say it and I’ve said it a ton of times I want the best version not necessarily the authentic We saw what happens when we’re too rose tinted.

If something’s badd something’s badd plain and simple spell batching was badd, Phase 2 with no battlegrounds and didn’t the original PVP system was badd, The way World buffs work was badd.

And quite honestly the 3rd and Final thing how far do we have to go before it’s no longer the burning crusade Well the problem with that is it’s very simple it’s different to everybody.

In my mind It’s when you start going into the automated systems that you really start to destroy it I would say if you put in achievements, Pet battles, And the automatic lfd,lfr.

And heaven forbid a cash shop That’s the burning crusades tombstone But again it’s different for everybody anyway.

That’s my take on it

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After talking to multiple people about dual spec in BC, here is my stance on the topic. I’d say:

  1. Yes to dual spec, if it provides a way to have one PVE spec (only useable in PVE) and one PVP spec (only useable in PVP).

  2. No to dual spec, if it provides a way to have 2 PVE or 2 PVP specs simply because it damages spec identity

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Well at the very least her again it right it’s Not class identity its spec Identity.

I personally don’t think spec Identity is really that important if I’m being honest I mean whether I’m an arms Warrior or a fury Warrior I am still a Warrior.

And quite honestly I would rather be a little bit more tool Box I because here’s the thing I’m never going to be as good at certain things as a Paladin, Praste, Or mage.

Just like those classes are not going to be as good at certain things that my classes get at so they’re still class identity and balance their.

Let alone I would argue for some classes You really only have 2 specs.

Pvp,pve Rogue I would say as a really big one. Warloeck I would say you have a little bit more variety but realistically you’re probly going SLS.

And hunter well Technically all 3 are viable bites if you really want Do those numbers and pomp You’re going beast mastery.

I’m still for dual spec exactly the way it was and wrath of the lich king If you make people go back to a trainer to respect you’re taking out the very good thing about it the whole point of that is this.

I’m leveling or pvp with 1 and Doing dungeons or With a nother.

If I’m a Healer praste I can switch to shadow so I can level easier.

And that’s what makes it good There’s no point for a convenience to be put into the game just so it can be inconvenient.

And honestly I think the idea that guilds are going to require I to have to specifics pve specs for raids is a little silly.

Again and I’ve said the several times If it was really that big of a Deal people would literally have Majors open a port to cities and raid have everyone that needs a respect for a certain fight teleport to town Pay the 50 gold and respec.

And then some and you back with wore locks but you noticed most people don’t do that right now in classic.

Yes BC is going to be harder however I don’t think we’re going to see a lot of people doing a lot of that even with it being easier for war likes to summon people.

So that argument just doesn’t hold value to me like realistically how many fights are we really going to see that on Maybe 1 or 2 maybe.

Maybe with elegant and maybe with Lady vosh And that’s not even going to be open right away so I’m saying I think it’ll be fine.

Dual spec does not break the game it makes it better plain and simple

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Dual spec means that the Ele Shaman has the option to have a Resto off spec. There is no rule saying they have too. Players have agency.

You do realize you can’t swap specs while in combat yes? A Druid will still be the king of versatility in that respect. Being able to tank and DPS during the encounter wil still be a thing uniquely to them.

But having dual spec will allow the Prot Warrior to go DPS on fights that don’t require them to tank, which would allow the Druid to tank more often, if that is what they prefer. Without it, the Druid would be the one required to DPS. Something they might not enjoy doing often.

Prot Paladins will do just fine tanking ST encounters.

No. It doesn’t.

I think you have that backwards haha.

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274

Agree 150% #DualSpec in tbc

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World buffs means that the Player Base has the option to have a massive throughput increase. There is no saying that they have to. Players have agency.

This isn’t my point and you know that this isn’t my point because:

Suggesting to me that you understand what the problem is and don’t seem to want to admit what the effects of a fury/prot dual spec warrior will have in practice.

This is the issue exactly. If its good for the .5% the meta follows, even if its impractical and even detrimental at lower skill brackets.

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Its simple, just make the requisite to swap specs in the inkeeper (and a short 1 hour cd maybe?) so it will not be abused on raids or pvp.

Dual specc makes the game more fluid and will have “gold sink” because u will still need to respec, but not that often.

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I’m seriously trying to figure out what exactly you mean by a hybrid shadow/holy smite spec.
You don’t bring a shadow priest to raids for the “personal dps” you bring a spreist in tbc for the mana battery effect - and that’s all the way at the bottom of the tree, which means the furthers you can go down the holy tree is improved healing - which means you miss out on the stronger talents at the bottom of holy - SG/SH, coh and holy conc.
The 2 roles are mutually exclusive and dependent on talents - maybe that works for a 5man heroic group, but you will be underwhelming in performance in both dps and healing by someone that actually spec’ed for the role they are playing.
At best you offer your raid team a flexible healer or dps spot, but the cost is you are a sub-par healer or a sub-par dps that doesn’t provide any benefit to his group

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It’s not shadow/holy but is disc/holy there are specific talents in both Disc and Holy Trees that boost holy damage such as Divine Fury, Holy Specialization, Force of Will, Searing Light, Spiritual Guidance, Mental Strength, Focused Power, & Surge of Light

I am simply saying with dual-spec I’d be required to make a shadow spec and a holy spec

There is actually alot of overlap in the talent trees for maximizing healing and dps output in this way. For instance Holy spec increases crit chance of holy spells by 5% which benefits both healing spells and smite/holy fire. Also Divine Fury reduces cast time of Heal, Greater Heal, Smite & Holy FIre by 0.5 sec. Once again a talent that serves multiple purposes.

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lol demon hunter
also , no
wait for classic WOTLK

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So you’re a basic disc priest who smites when he can? That’s not a hybrid spec…

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Not in the slightest, I am a full DPS wearing full DPS gear. I have a 2nd set of gear in my bags for if I need to heal on a fight or if a healer is out for the night. I am a flex player that fills two roles

Currently in classic I play 32/19/0 which your normal healing builds are either 31/20/0 or 21/30/0

Also searing light and force of will are damage exclusive talents so the healers don’t get them in addition to holy reach to increase the range of my smite.

Smite Spec:
https://classic.wowhead.com/talent-calc/priest/054200130505151-22505100202

Deep Disc Healing:
https://classic.wowhead.com/talent-calc/priest/505230130505101-2150510303

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Both of those specs do well in classic, but not so much in TBC.
You provide to your raid a single priest that has the DS buff, PI and dps that may or may not be equivalent to a shadow priest and healing that is acceptable when needed.
with dual spec I could provide the same flexibility, only better in both roles by having one spec as holy and one spec as shadow.
OR without dual-spec I could do the same thing by simply throwing gold at the problem - catch a lock summon, port to a city, spend some gold, and suddenly I’m providing the exact same flexibility you provide - the only difference is the 2 or 3 minutes it takes for me to get to a city and back - and if your raid cares about 2 or 3 minutes, then they won’t be bringing a smite priest in the first place.
I think you strongly overvalue the flexibility you provide when compared against the opportunity cost of not being deep in the holy tree or deep in the shadow tree for the mana recovery, or the lengths that some teams will go to provide the very same flexibility.
either way, I do agree dual spec does indeed kill your prefered playstyle; but then agian, so do lock summons, mage ports and throwing gold at the problem.

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I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make here, but it’s probably not well thought out and easily argued against. I didn’t always get all/any World Buffs for raids. Still cleared it all.

Your argument was that a Feral Druid would loose their uniqueness. It’s a bad argument. As I said, a Feral Druid can swap from Tank to DPS within the encounter. A Prot Warrior trying to DPS when not tanking is pretty useless. So a Druid will still be king of role swapping, as intended, if Dual Spec is implemented.

What problem? I don’t see a problem. Letting players play they way they want while having some options is not problematic.

On my Druid I like bear tanking. I don’t really enjoy Cat DPS. Allowing the Warrior who prefers to DPS to swap to that when they are not needed for tanking let’s both if us play the way we want. I’m not asked to DPS when I don’t want to. They don’t have to tank full time.

Pretty simple concept.

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No we don’t.

End of discussion.

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