While partially true (only when it comes to performance), that’s up to each player to decide.
Blizzard decided they wanted to kill every “bad” spec in Cata, so people couldn’t purposefully spec 22/22/23 anymore if they so desired.
Not everyone wants their combat focus to be MAXDPS.
That’s more of a tuning failure than a design flaw.
They really can’t win because people complain no matter what. The trees they’ve made are well done and we should leave it at that. Better than spending resources trying to scrap them with something else people won’t like
This is 100% incorrect. MoP talent rows were better than much of what came before (Weapon Balance says hi) but were, fundamentally, boring, and minimal interaction. Many of the selections were entirely the same across all forms of content. Frost Mage had a row dedicated entirely to not having a water elemental, and that was one of the seven choices. From at least Legion, through to removal, it had two dead talent options to compete against because it was a throughput loss to have the elemental in every situation. The new trees are imperfect, but they are full of things you would actually consider picking instead of 7 choices that are seldom anything close to balanced with each other.
You aren’t wrong, but that also becomes a problem that they knew would happen.
In a game where people have been known to min-max every basic aspect, putting an intentional limiting factor with small box choices was a dumb design choice.
they had a somewhat interesting system in diablo 3 for example, that would have serviced as a better “pick your box” format and chose to do a very dumbed down iteration of that with less creative picks.
Nope. It entirely depends on what you want and what you enjoy. You want to be cooking cutter? That’s your choice.
Again, when loadouts addons have roughly 1.5 million downloads to expand how many can be saved, while people have been asking for more loadouts, as well… this narrow minded view of “I can only take this” that people have is their own fault. Not the system’s.
The only reason the new talents weren’t added to the bottom of our existing tree is because Blizz was too lazy to spend the time to lock people out of taking all of the current end talents. The new talents are absolutely an extension of the current ones.
Mists and Warlords didn’t need to. We didn’t have as many levels. Once we hit Legion, we absolutely went into borrowed power systems to supplement lack of talents. The Legion weapons were literally a new talent tree. How you can’t recognize that is beyond me.
You’d be locked out of both with that crap old system.
There are talents that exist in the current talent tree that also never get picked in any form of content.
This is pure illusion.
There is no difference between changing 2 rows on the MoP tree verse going down the slightly more right side of the tree opposed to the center.
Uh, no…? Because things were basline.
Disengage. Multi-Shot. Etc.
We’re not just comparing the MoP tree to the DF tree.
We are also comparing baseline spells verse now talents.
Most of the lesser talents have either been removed fully or revamped at this point.
I’ve seen relatively different builds used for leveling, mythic +, raids, both aoe and single target. Yes, it all leads down the tree to an endpoint but that’s the entire point.
The ability to move around things has always been the illusion of choice, but it’s a good illusion which is the point.
In the older system you literally had 2 of 3 boxes that were just dead talents forever. There was no illusion, the options were barebones and felt bad when you picked something sub-standard.
That’s half of my point though.
We shouldn’t have to have AOE and ST builds. We never used to have to talent into AOE at such a large cost of ST. The fact that you have an “AOE” build doesn’t mean the talent tree is better or more diverse, it just means we’ve had more of our base kit ripped out into talent nodes.
This is mostly cherry picking.
There are specs today that haven’t changed their talent tree for the entire expansion.
Also there wasn’t just an illusion on the MoP system. It was a lot easier to justify opting into “non-meta” talents because it was inexpensive. Literally 1 swap.
Didn’t want to play with Volley in SL? Done.
Don’t want to play with Volley in DF? You have to avoid the left side of the tree and pick up some non-favorable talents to do so.
I agree to an extent on the abilities, I know that has always been a divisive topic.
bearing in mind that they are currently working to bake more into the classes at least from what I’ve played in the beta, that looks like they may be slowly moving towards that. At least that’s the hope.
The old talent system also had that same split though.
There was a box made for AoE and a box made for single target, you didn’t get both.
that was actually one of my biggest issues with some of the classes in PvP, it was a disaster trying to pick a box and be severely limited. Or in other cases where you had all AoE’s you only ever picked one because the other two were completely trash.
At least with the current system you can mix to an extent.
as a rogue I can absolutely go to the far sides and get the AoE and single target things and still get 1-2 capstones.
As a Mage, both now and in beta, I can easily mix and match where I want my abilities to function at a higher or lower baseline.
Also on the old system, just using mage for an example, having to pick between scorch or PoM for example felt horrible.
Exactly, I don’t think people realize how much they butchered the classes to accommodate the bloated current talent iteration.
People are complaining so much about two-to-three-point nodes in war within beta that it’s now been hailed as progress reducing talent nodes to maybe one so people can pick up more things on the way to a capstone.
News flash, people just want access to everything LOL.
Btw everyone is entitled to their opinion so if you love the newest talent iteration that is fine.
I just personally feel its poorly implemented.
Bottom line is I enjoyed the MOP to shadowlands era because I had way more access to core rotational ability. Sure, they could have done better on that I won’t argue.
Talent rows should be variations of similar things.
Row of STUN
Row of Mobility
Row of AOE
etc.
A good example and I am sure I just have a dumb warrior brain but when I look at rogue talent tree for sub, I have no idea what to take…
Do I take Gore maw and flagellation? What path do I take? How do they interact? Am I building for raid dungeon or PVP?
Old system felt more intuitive as to what the buttons do and how they fit into the kit.
Oh, I know I’ll just look at raiderio and copy one if the top guys in dungeon if im doing dungeon. Or ill copy the top PVPer or raider and then kind of wing it.
Maybe go to wow head or discord or icy vein and then get the weak aura etc.
I feel like reliance on all these external things has only escalated 10-fold after shadowlands. It’s an entire industry built around how jacked up and messy the talents are sometimes(some specs way better than others)
What you are describing is having choices that are meaningful, where abilities do different things instead of having one or two talents in each row that are literal never picks.
Id like to see what a rogue thinks regarding that because that is not the sentiment on warwithin beta forum
Most baseline spells end up being taken regardless, because you cannot get down the tree without them.
And with others, you now have a choice. Look at Warlocks, who either had to sacrifice damage reduction for speed or sacrifice speed for damage reduction. No longer an issue.
None of the classes I play changed much at all from SL to DF. All baseline spells were nearly exactly the same. All of my action bars looked nearly exactly the same.
That’s not how talent systems work, nor how they’ve ever worked.
All of the classes I play still have all core rotational abilities. So I’m not sure I follow this at all.
That’s what makes it more interactive and fun. You can sit and play with builds, study the lower talents and decide where you want to go.
It’s why loadouts exist and why people constantly want more loadouts to the point of addons having roughly 1.5 million downloads to expand the loadouts.
Bingo.
You don’t have to copy the meta-talents node for node. If you use something like WoWhead as a guide and use the reasoning behind their choices to help you create your own build, that’s actually not a bad thing to do.
Most builds are specifically lop-sided depending on the content and often focused on pure damage, which can be wiggled around with enough perseverance.
MoP had some of the best class design for some classes which together with the artifact was a lot of fun. However, a lot of the class design features were independent from the talent choices which were often problematic for some classes because of the way they grouped some of the best talents together.
I prefer the new talent trees.