Sylvanas Windrunner: Redemption Justified (Spoilers)

As many of you now know, Blizzard is well underway in redeeming Sylvanas, as indicated most in one of the latest Patch 9.2 cinematics (found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtnpaOoecZ8&t=274s). Some players think it’s sloppy writing while others think redemption is unacceptable given her past misdeeds. I’m not here to critique the writing, but the idea that Sylvanas is unforgivable is utter nonsense.

The rationale for Sylvanas’ redemption is that she was not quite herself all this time; when Arthas killed her years ago, Frostmourne shattered her soul, consuming (trapping?) all of her good qualities and leaving only her bad ones to carry on. Uther the Lightbringer described this process when he said, “When Arthas struck me down, Frostmourne shattered my soul. But it was not divided into one part that was noble and another that was cruel. Rather, it was as if a portion of my consciousness remained frozen in time while the rest of my soul carried on. To feel that missing fragment restored… well, it has caused me to reflect upon many of the choices I have made.”

We know being raised into undeath warps a person, as evidenced by the kind Tidesage Thomas Zelling in Stormsong Valley who wished to be raised into undeath to protect his family rather than die in peace. When he’s raised, he struggles with rage and resentment to the point of scaring his family away. If regular undeath can warp a person this way, how much greater must that change be when raised into undeath by Frostmourne?

Suffice it to say that from Sylvanas’ introduction in Warcraft 3, players have had ample reason to understand her as twisted from her true self; that her decisions originated from a corrupted will. If this is so, she ceased to be a moral agent the moment she was killed by Arthas. Her capacity to do good was greatly diminished if not robbed of her altogether. If so, how can we blame a person for acting the only way they could act? It would be like scolding a storm for damaging your house. You may not like it, but calling the storm to account for its actions is nonsensical because it lacks agency; it could have done nothing else.

Like a storm, Sylvanas may be causally responsible for atrocities, but not morally responsible. She laments the suffering she has caused even though she was not fully herself when she caused it. It would be like a man who, after being forcibly injected with hallucinogenic drugs, killed a child in a fit of madness, then feeling remorse once the drugs wore off and he came to his senses. There’s a terrible feeling of responsibility having caused suffering to someone even if you did not mean to or had no choice in the matter, but that does not mean the person is morally responsible in the sense of having to give account for their actions.

Further still, I get the impression that many players don’t really understand how forgiveness works; that they would forgive Sylvanas if her misdeeds were inconsequential or on a smaller scale, but because genocide is on the table, she has become unforgivable. C.S. Lewis once wrote, “Everyone thinks forgiveness is a lovely idea until they have something to forgive.” If we forgive only the trivial wrongs, what value is our sense of forgiveness?

I like where they’ve taken Sylvanas’ story because it forces any player paying attention to grapple with the concepts of moral agency, accountability, forgiveness, and redemption. There’s something that feels unfinished if we leave a fallen hero in a perpetual state of corruption and bitterness. Having died protecting others against the Scourge and endured the external and internal conflicts undeath brings, it’s satisfying to see her pull through it all.

18 Likes

It’d be far simpler if she was just dead for good.

23 Likes

The Banshee Queen was a mass of Despair, Doubt and Narcissism left behind when Frostmourne took everything else from her Soul.

Her Narcissism made her give Anduin a choice to chose to serve or be made to serve in order to prove her Despair right.

He promptly proved the Despair wrong but her Narcissism decided she had come too far to stop now and thus enslaved Anduin even as her Doubts gnawed at her.

Once Zovaal stated outright that he was going to enslave Sylvanas confirming her Doubts concerning him she immediately turned on him.

The Banshee Queen has no Morals but lots of Narcissism, Doubt and Despair.

2 Likes

I am happy they are attempting to make the story make sense. And not kill off a horde leader. This helps explain a bunch of stuff, but it leaves some questions too. We all want blizzard to fix the story, some people are caught up in there emotions enough that they want her dead anyway just because of her past. It is nice though to be morally feel weird about this. People focus more on wanting her dead then having the story explained.

5 Likes

I will only forgive Sylvanas if she kills Nathanos…again.

1 Like

I think a lot of people really don’t pay attention to Sylvanas’ character, or half the story in general. Not just now, but throughout all of WoW. Everything she’s done and why she’s done it.

People get so hung up on Teldrassil and label her a black evil unredeemable villain and just want her dead. Which yes she’s royally sucked for a long time, awful person. I’ve hated her forever too. But her personality and motivations are usually more complicated than just “kill them all for the lulz”

Also as Revendreth shows, very few people are beyond redemption. Even if it may take centuries to pull it off. But too many take everything at face value and don’t really watch what’s going on below that. I still think SL is the end of her character in WoW. But it’s fine for Blizz to end her how they want to and not just have her die without a word about it. :zipper_mouth_face:

2 Likes

Legion introduction says otherwise. So do her interactions with Anduin and her concern for the man she loved.

All of what you’ve written sounds more like extreme fan excuses. Like the woman who is in love with the guy who killed a child and sends him fan letters in prison.

4 Likes

It the easiest way out of a ending. Just put all the blame on some else, even if that person is you. Just make some line how it was you but felt like you were in the back seat the whole time, and all is forgotten cause that was not you in control.

So, we’re is the struggle that this character must now come to grips with the reality of their past sins, and knowing that a entire world will shun you?

Oh never mind the other heros forgive them so no need for that character development.

1 Like

This is like the superior Spiderman, FFIV plots and other anime trope plots.

If as a banshee her soul was split by the jailer, it would make sense for many undead to not be full souls. We see the Jailer had many soul fragments for example. One of Lana’thel, who also changed dramatically serving the lich king. This helps explains that part of scourge lore interactions, and helps explain some of the change. She still had feelings, but not being a full person probably makes you more of a zombie queen.

1 Like

See, I don’t think that’s true. She worked together with the Alliance at the beginning of Legion, but only when it was in her own interest to do so (and we know how long that lasted). Her interactions with Anduin in Torghast seem to hint at feelings of doubt & self-reflection, but mostly in a self-serving way (e.g. is Sylvanas really in league with the Jailer or is she just one of his pawns). Whatever feelings of empathy she may have expressed toward Anduin are ultimately dwarfed by her magnified sense of vengeance, self-preservation, and spite; that her good qualities are largely if not wholly “frozen” just like Uther’s were.

It had nothing to do with her. She was saving the Horde and Vol’jin when she called for retreat. The look on her face shows remorse for having to leave.

This honestly doesn’t even make sense. You don’t show doubt when you’re solely out for yourself, unless there’s an inner part of you that has morals and feelings.

In the end, her character was destroyed and doesn’t make sense. All for some bad cosmic storyline and they backed her into a corner. Every story decision they’ve made since Legion was bad. As someone who used love the storyline, I refuse to make excuses or stretch the lore so far to have to reach for said excuses.

Baine’s comment also was a bit funny. If this somehow goes back to the Tauren finding a way to cure the undead (which was a reason why they let the tauren advocated for forsaken join the horde), that may be a way for the story to be better in a sort of way. Open up options for forsaken. See how these new philosophies add with old forsaken philosophies. I am now interested in what they will do with the Calia storyline line and perhaps forsaken heritage armor. Will it be more lordaeron esque? Will Slyvannas rejoin us somehow? Will she be a part of the new forsaken or be done away with as a new figure in the lore. She probably won’t be interested in leading the forsaken again.

If she is like Uther, she will be a mix of two souls that lived different lives. An interesting position.

Will blizzard tie the nuetral grouping system with lore? Many things to speculate on.

This sucks.

I don’t know . . . based on the cinematic she seems well aware that everything she did was unforgiveable . . . and she is right in this case, EVERYTHING WAS UNFORGIVEABLE AND THERE IS NO MORAL QUANDRY HERE . . . lets hope they keep with this and she truly submits to her justified punishment which will hopefully not be a slap on the wrist or a handwave but true justice.

edit: please?

I don’t care about the “she only had half her soul” excuse. She was capable of making her own decisions and choice to commit mass murder in the name of a “death god” who promised if she was a good little girl she wouldn’t have to go back to hell.

The “half soul” thing is just a reason for why she acted as she did, it is not an excuse or justification for her actions.

2 Likes

i liked her as a banshee. a curious detail is that even as a banshee she seems to want to explain her actions, as if she does feel justified and wants to persuade the living on azeroth. what is it she refers to that is beyond life and death?

i think subtler writing could craft her as a morally grey anti-hero. i have grown accustomed to sylvanas being edgy and if she returns to being fairly normal i’ll miss that type of character. but yeah, blizzard seems to want to rewrite her and other darker lore characters to be as positive and upbeat as possible now. you can see much of the grimier parts of wow lore being scrubbed away to be replaced by a more family friendly cast.

sylvanas deserves redemption. she was just a chill elf in life, the fate that befell her was rough as hell.

1 Like

Blizzard removed agency from the Protagonist of the current story.

By all means, how does that make their writing any better?

She can be forgiven after I cut off her head.

I’m annoyed I can relate a bit to this example. And how this does make me feel a smidge sorry for Sylvanas.

I’ve had instances in my life where I flat out disassociated against my will. SOMETHING triggered my brain even while I was doing something mundane and there were consequences to this. When I come back and see what happened, it’s a weird mix of “Okay I am REALLY sorry please hold me accountable” and “Maybe go a little easy for this specific moment” Because while I wasn’t in control, I still did stuff. Nothing to Sylv’s level. The results were either little things like I could be pouring milk into cereal and I come back to my head and there’s milk just EVERYWHERE. Or one instance where I basically went on auto pilot and bought / opened around 800 dollars of hearthstone packs. Couldn’t get a refund because i had opened the packs in this state.

I’ve had friends that are bipolar so they’d have to possibly deal with the results of their actions from when they were manic.

IF Blizz was going for something like this, they kinda dropped the ball.

It’s like the meme response of say someone doing something cringe on twitter. They get backlash. Then they say something like “um I’m literally neurodivergent and a minor soooo” as if that’s a get out of jail free card to being terrible. Mental health is COMPLICATED. Stories that try to portray stuff to similar struggles one with mental health goes through aren’t just pure black / white cut n dry.

All Shadowlands has shown is that blizz can’t write cosmic stuff and they most certainly can’t do actual meaningful mental health stuff other than “Oh I’m comically insane” like Theotar. But I like Theotar so they can at least do that right.

1 Like