FINALLY YOU FOOLS GET IT!!!
Sylvanas is bad news and must be put to rest!!!
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Extremes are not the average, nor by any means relevant examples. In any sample size of note, you’ll find more knowledgeable 100 year olds than 10 year olds in a general education context. Saying there is no corrolation between age and experience is simply ignoring reality.
Simply being alive longer gives more opportunities to gain experience.
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What I’m saying is, that, it doesn’t mean it always does, though.
People like to talk up Sylvanas as this incredible, military, genius even though she hasn’t actually won that many battles in any particular tactical fashion and has also lost her fair share of battles as well. She won Gilneas not because of any genius flank strategy or military firepower, she won through guile by using Lorona Crowley as a bargaining chip to force the Gilneans to surrender. Andorhol wasn’t won through any particular strategy, she just pulled an incompetent commander from the field and used her superior numbers and necromantic abilities to win the town.
Of course, that’s not to say that she’s isn’t a great strategist she’s just not as astoundingly better at it than some of the other Horde leaders.(except Baine, everyone’s better than Baine) She’s directly on par with Saurfang, at best. I’m not understating her worth or downplaying her skills like so many love to believe, I’m just saying she’s not some 4-D chess player.
You’re acting as though those aren’t the qualities of a strong military strategist, even though they are. Not every battle needs to be a slaughter, as Gilneas shows. Pulling an incompetent leader out is exactly what a competent leader should do. Downplaying those in favor of saying she’s on-par with an orc whose go-to military strategy is best summed up as “throw swarms of soldiers at the problem, especially when the enemy isn’t even aware they’re in a war” is disingenuous. Saurfang has only been shown to be capable of a straight-on fight, which most military engagements are anything but. Sylvannas by contast has shown she is capable of using multiple different strategies.
So yes, you are absolutely downplaying her skill by virtue of the fact you downplay anything that isn’t two armies trading blows on a battlefield.
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I never said they weren’t or I wouldn’t have mentioned them, and instead opt to only talk about her failures. I’m more than willing acknowledge the sucesses when they’re there.
Once again, never said that…
Then again, Gilneas WAS kind of a slaughter wasn’t it? She didn’t deploy the blight AFTER she had already routed the GLF.
Yeah, that’s fine, didn’t say it was a bad call or not smart.
Now YOU are just downplaying Saurfang, because we know that “throwing swarms of soldiers” is not all he’s done. He’a definitely had his fair share of smart tactics such as waylaying the Alliance army during the second war while the Horde retreated to the Hinterlands or using a two-pronged assault to siege Ahn’quiraj.
I swear, I don’t even know why I bother, you guys always read me incorrectly. I’m not downplaying any of her accomplishments, If i were downplaying any of it, I’d be saying things like Gilneas was pyrrhic at best and that Andorhol was a relatively minor victory. No, I’m just saying she isn’t the military prodigy that you people seem to talk her up as. She has strengths and weaknesses like any strong commander.
Incorrect.
Play through Silverpine again. By the time you’ve fought your way up to he Gilnean Wall, Sylvanas has amassed a large army, war machines, etc. faced only by a ragtag final group of resistance. The 7th Legion has already been routed, and her victory is inevitable.
The Lorna tactic is not used because the Forsaken need to win by “guile”, it’s used to minimize Sylvanas’ casualties by avoiding a needless last stand by the worgen. Per the quest dialogue, even Crowley acknowledges at that point that the Gilneans cannot win, but will die fighting. Then she produces Lorna to force him to retreat.
I’ve posted all the relevant dialogue several times times on this forum, including in a recent thread. Yet still the myth that Sylvanas only won that campaign through “guile” persists. She won it by grinding her enemies into the dirt:
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Onward, [player]! We will beat back the Alliance dogs and secure Lordaeron for the Forsaken! For the Horde!
Accompany Lady Sylvanas Windrunner across the Battlefront.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner yells: Lay down your arms and surrender!
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner yells: I will leave your cities in dust and your lives in ruin!
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Look at them, [player]. They scurry like rats, veering headlong to their doom. Surely Crowley and Bloodfang can see the futility in this!
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: To the Greymane Wall! We will force their hand.
The party arrives at the Greymane Wall.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner yells: Crowley, your forces have fallen before my mighty army. You have lost!
[Lord Darius Crowley] along with [Packleader Ivar Bloodfang] arrives at the scene.
Lord Darius Crowley says: It’s not over, Sylvanas. Not yet.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: You frivolously throw away the lives of your people while your own king sits atop his throne of lies, nary lifting a finger to help.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Is Gilneas worth the lives that have been lost? The lives that will be lost? You cannot win.
Lord Darius Crowley says: We will die trying!
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: And your daughter? You could have saved her… You could have offered her your blood, yet you did not. Why?
Lord Darius Crowley says: LORNA? What… Where is she!? What have you done to her!?
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Nothing, yet…
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: I now present you with a choice - a choice that I was never given.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: I offer you the life of Lorna for your unconditional surrender.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Choose your next words wisely, Crowley. Deny me and she will serve me in undeath - forever.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner yells: Bring her, Godfrey!
[Lord Godfrey] arrives at the scene, clutching the body of Lorna Crowley, along with [Lord Walden] and [Baron Ashbury]
Lord Darius Crowley says: GODFREY! You deceitful maggot!
Lord Godfrey says: Hello, old friend!
Lord Darius Crowley says: Lorna… I… Release her. I will sound the retreat.
Packleader Ivar Bloodfang says: You can’t be serious, Crowley. You miserable bastard!
Packleader Ivar Bloodfang runs back to Gilneas.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Release her, Godfrey.
Lord Godfrey says: Of course, mistress.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Now leave here, Crowley, and never return.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Lordaeron belongs to the Forsaken.
Lord Darius Crowley says: Forgive me, daughter…
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This might not be a problem of everyone else reading you wrong, and more a problem of poor wording on your part. You claim you’re not saying, for example, that pulling an incompetent leader out of the battlefield isn’t a bad decision, yet at the same time you use it to portray Sylvannas as somehow not making a wise strategic decision.
You point out her successes and minimize them (I.E. Andorhal and Gilneas), point to her major defeat against the overwhelming army that was the Scourge (which happened to be a force that trampled everyone, and come to the conclusion that Saurfang must be superior based on the hype around the character and using a very basic tactic against the Alliance… In a war his side also lost.
All to argue that Saurfang would be a better leader, and that age and experience have no corrolation.
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I did the quests, you’re partially correct, but the GLF had still overrun their forward outposts at that point and pushed the Forsaken out of Gilneas, and were amassing their combined 7th Legion and Worgen armies getting ready to push into Silverpine.
You’re right about avoiding the casualties, but the Forsaken were pushed out of Gilneas city and eventually the zone, even with their army of deathguards, blighthrowers, and aid from Orgrimmar. So we build up our forces by invading Ambermill and raising the Kirin’tor forces there, re-asemble the drunk Orc force, and raising Godfrey and his fellow nobles. Then when we learned of Lorona being on the frontlines who could be used as a bargaining chip to force Crowley to concede before the full force of the 7th Legion could potentially crush her armies.
The Forsaken weren’t winning, they got overwhelmed and kicked out of Gilneas, and then were about to face the might of Stormwind, Ivars’ bloodfang pack, and Crowley’s forces. They were going to risk being defeated by the guerilla tactics that were being effectively utilized by the worgen forces and it was only from quick thinking by Sylvanas that they ended up winning.
Idk why you’re debating this, not only did such quick thinking save her many, many Horde lives but also the trouble of having to trudge through the massive army of Worgen and 7th Legion forces, and risk defeat. Now that’s not to say she couldn’t win, I’m just saying the possibility of loss was there. It gives her more clout as a competent, quick-thinking commander who saw an opportunity and jumped on it quickly.
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Then maybe it is poor wording, cuz that’s not what I meant at all. Koltira was not doing what he had to do out of “respect” for his former ally Thassarian, Sylvanas acted quickly, got rid of him, and did what needed to be done to win the day.
Literally nothing about what I was trying to say, was about inferring that this was a bad choice or displayed weak military skill.(maybe by Koltira, though)
I didn’t “minimize” anything, that’s literally what happened. Smart choices by a smart character, they weren’t much more complicated than that.
I literally did not even discuss it, it was a footnote at best just to get my point across that she isn’t the impeccable military commander that people claim her to be.
I didn’t say Saurfang was any better, I said “she’d be on par with him at best”,a similar level, as in they’re both skilled commanders but both still have their weaknesses, they’re not perfect. No one is.
Didn’t say there wasn’t correlation, just that they’re not the same thing. Having more/less of one doesn’t always mean having more/less of the other.
No we’re not. There isn’t anything.
@#$ing sick of reading this view from her delusional fans. Yes, she is portrayed as a sympathetic villain at times. Her character is similar to SC1 Kerrigan, who let Raynor live in one mission and helped against common enemies. That does not make her conflicted, on a path of redemption or whatever(Kerrigan’s redemption in SC2 came only after she was actually healed). WC3’s Frozen Throne was developed alongside WoW and Blizzard wanted playable Undead. They reused a similar plot arc from the Zerg and put it in that game. She grew from there but that is your original basis for Sylvanas. Another villain.
So many people claim to be fans, but when pressed don’t know anything about her, don’t read quest text, don’t read external materials. I followed her since WC3 and I’m hard pressed to find a single positive thing she has done for the Horde until she saved soldiers at the Broken Shore.
I’ve heard these discussions on the internet about ’ she’s going off the rails’, but is she ? I’ve been writing Sylvanas personally since 2006, and this is pretty much – the Wrathgate and the Blight and the Forsaken – in character.
It’s time to take the clue…
She was evil from WC3, you didn’t pay attention to the plot. Her singing a song in Burning Crusade questline doesn’t make her deep or complex. She’s described in Blizzard’s own materials as the “wicked banshee queen”. She’s had emotional outbursts, she’s made chemical weapons, she’s had it all since the beginning.
- She accidentally let Arthas escape in WC3 because she wanted to kill him slowly.
- She lied to Garithos then killed him
- She created the blight.
- She tortured Koltira Deathweaver in Undercity.
- She killed a young girl
- She killed Horde.
- She conspired with the Grimtotem tribe (I personally question if even the poison used to kill Cairne was gotten through the Forsaken)
- She mocked the deaths of Horde soldiers
- She killed puppies (seriously, she ran through the wilderness killing wildlife in her way)
- She disobeyed orders from the Warchief.
- During Siege of Orgrimmar she screams: "Rise, my angels! Let your screams fill the streets of Orgrimmar with TERROR!
- When Vol’jin becomes Warchief she says she won’t take orders from a troll.
- She planned to poison Garrosh during the trial
Morally grey much? She was never “evil but subtle” she’s just @#$ing evil. I can’t even keep track of it all anymore. You could make her raid tomorrow and a thousand NPCs would line up to offer the quest to you.
She had a chance at redemption she probably shouldn’t have got, after Blizzard forced her into the Warchief role. What does she do? Disappears off to make pacts with Helya. She’s been in need of a spanking the entire duration of Warcraft.
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Granted, she has been an evilish, morally black Undead character (I for my life cannot picture a good heavenly Forsaken, hell I even got seizures when I heard of Calia M.
But then, I like this.
I play this franchise since WC2 &3. I loved the Forsaken campaign, I loved Arthas transformation, I loved Sylvanas infamous death, raising and struggle for freedom, how she planed her vengeance, and yes how she betrayed humans at the end of the bargain. Granted, this type of characters are not for your average C`ptn America fan (I do love him tho ![:heart_eyes:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/heart_eyes.png?v=6" ":heart_eyes:")
).
I don’t hide I am a Sylvanas fan, but not because I see her as an honorable angelical Hero ( there’s Anduin for that), or the uncomprehended noble beast (Orcs), but for being this undead Villain-Hero, more realistic to her un-nature than most characters, driven by hatred and vengeance as described in Chronicles, but with a small touch of her former self.
I loved WoW franchise for been one that risked having the player play as the evil ones with their own pov.
How they will finish her arc story for this expansion, I have no idea. I just hope it wont finish á la Garrosh 2.0.
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“The Banshee Queen is dead but she didn’t name the next Warchief! THRALL WHAT DO WE DO?!”
Thrall hesitates. “Uhhhh.” He quickly checks his satchel, but realizes it’s the kid’s bag. Aggra must have swapped it with his bag accidentally again. Crap!
He quickly plucks the nearest toy from the bag. “Behold! Your new Warchief!” He flings the stuffed pigeon into the Warchief’s seat and takes off running as the crowd roars and beats their drums. “I’m going back to Outland now, later!”
EDIT:
Half of these aren’t even evil, lol
Like, I agree with you that she’s been fluctuating between Lawful Neutral/Neutral Evil since her rezzing in WCIII, but come on man, you’re just hurting your case when you present a bunch of ridiculous examples alongside really good ones.
Also you forgot to mention the Royal Apothecary Society’s human experiments, including turning living people into mindless ghouls, the process of crafting abominations (which is truly horrific and existentially terrifying), and also that one time she called Anduin a mean name which was not nice. :c
Just because she’s evil doesn’t mean that I, as a fan, would be happy to see her character wasted for the sake of a faction story which is severely lacking in characters at the moment. It literally comes down to a numbers problem. The Horde can’t afford to lose one of the only iconic characters it has left.
I’d be fine with her receiving her comeuppance literally just so long as she doesn’t get wiped from the story completely. It would honestly kinda suck if she did, because then it’d just be a case of Blizzard confirming Alliance Good Horde Bad (But Not Real Horde Bad We Promise!!!) thing for the ten millionth time, but whatever. Baine can eat my shorts.
Now we’re getting somewhere ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
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As last time, you should check the quests you’re referring to before telling people to play through them again.
From the quest On Her Majesty’s Secret Service:
- Lorna Crowley, daughter of Lord Darius Crowley, is currently at the Gilneas Liberation Front camp, located near the Greymane Wall, to the southeast.
Our primary mission is to infiltrate the camp and capture her alive. The Dark Lady believes that she will be able to use Lorna as a bargaining chip against Crowley. I say we just kill her and bring her back as Forsaken, but we must do as the Dark Lady commands.
We must hurry before the rest of the Alliance forces arrive.
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I think they have to hurry to prevent the alliance forces from protecting Lorna, but not to win the battle. Sylvanas has their battle plans and is blighting the crap out of them with real blight at this point. From the context, Deathstalker Belmont clearly doesn’t think it’s necessary to capture Lorna alive for them to win.
And I think that a big part of Godfrey’s motivation for killing Sylvanas was that she didn’t slaughter them, when she could have. to him that was Sylvanas being weak.
The quest just before the one above, Sowing Discord:
- The Alliance reinforcements have established a foothold in the southwest region of Silverpine called 7th Legion Base Camp. Our primary goal at the base camp is to sow discord amongst the troops. This is a lightning fast assassination mission to kill their field commander, General Marstone. His death won't stop the Alliance advance, but it will certainly soften their ranks.
The rest of the Alliance fleet will arrive shortly, only to find their base camp decimated. Now for the second and most important part of our battle plan.
Well, there’s caring and there’s caring. I would have been perfectly fine with “She’s scared of the afterlife, so she really, really, REALLY doesn’t want to lose at war, and that means she’s not going to waste the life of one single Horde soldier.” That would have been enough caring for me; it didn’t have to go to “And she loves them all because they’re her people” (though it also could have gone there, with lots of story work).
Wasn’t the Hallow’s End speech in vanilla?
But then that gets us into the headache area of “She’s scared of the afterlife, so she really, really, REALLY shouldn’t have started a war in the first place because that means she’s going to waste the lives of countless Horde soldiers.”
Well, in this hypothetical scenario, she wouldn’t have started the war either; I have never thought that made sense, frankly.
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The original Hallow’s End speech didn’t mention Lordaeron:
- Children of the Night, heed your Queen's call!
I join you in celebration of this most revered of nights - the night we Forsaken broke the Scourge's yoke of oppression!
It is this night that our enemies fear us the most. It is THIS night that we show our enemies what it means to stand against the Forsaken!
We burn the effigy of the Wickerman as a symbol of our struggle against those who would oppose us. We wear the ashes of the burnt Wickerman as a symbol of our neverending fight against those who would enslave us.
Now is the time to shake the world to its foundations! NOW is the time to remind those who would enslave us that we shall never yield!
NOW is the time of the Forsaken! Power to the Forsaken - NOW AND FOREVER!!!
The speech changed after the holiday revamps is…
- Children of the Grave, heed my call!
In life, we suffered unspeakable tragedies.
We watched as our homes were razed to the ground.
We cried out in agony as our families were cut down before our eyes.
Finally, in the face of such atrocities, we were denied even the release of death.
Now, we burn this wickerman as a symbol of our victory against old enemies!
We paint our faces with the ash to send a message to new enemies - a declaration to those who fear and revile us as monsters.
To those who would question our place in this world...
We are NOT monsters! We are NOT the mindless wretches of a ghoul army!
No... we are a force even more terrifying...
We are the chill in a coward's spine...
We are the instruments of an unyielding ire...
WE ARE THE FORSAKEN!!
… Which… given the events of Darkshore…
Hmm, I thought there was some text in the Hallow’s End holiday stuff that mentioned Lordaeron by name, but I’m not seeing it in either version.