In Classic the Alliance was implied to be much more intolerant and medieval in philosophy. The description of them is “bound by a loathing for all things demonic”. While Forsaken were more renegade Scourge than they were former Lordaeron humans with attachments. I think the whole “we are the true lordaeron” thing didn’t appear until Cataclysm.
No one was hunting them in Classic. Even the Scarlets only killed people who came to their holdings. They didn’t go out hunting.
What about the League of Arathor (Arathi Basin) or the quest to kill Nathanos?
… the champion of the Forsaken.
No. This cannot be. Order must be restored.
Gather an army, <name>. Return to the Plagues with your army and destroy the Blightcaller.
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That was an odd case, but a good example, yes (though the questchain was from Bolvar, not the League of Arathor). That questline involved mistaken identity, as the Alliance thought that a person called Blightcaller (who they did not know was Nathanos with a new last name) had killed Nathanos and were seeking to avenge him, leading to the ironic deaths of agents that found Nathanos.
- Five of my best field agents were assigned the Marris case. One returned, only to end up dead in his sleep three days later.
What little information we did manage to get out of him was incoherent gibberish. We made out two words: “Nathanos,” and “Blightcaller.”
- The only information we have thus far, then, is that Nathanos Marris may have been slain by this Blightcaller. We assume the Blightcaller is the same fiend that disposed of my agents.
It was especially strange, because Bolvar treated it as freeing Nathanos:
- It is a tragedy. I think... I believe that our kind is cursed, <name>. We are cursed to lose our greatest warriors; our most noble heroes; our most gifted scholars.
We are indebted to you and I assure you, <name>, wherever Nathanos Marris is now, he smiles down upon you.
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The Alliance and Scarlet Crusade were both actively fighting them. Though obviously the Legion and Scourge were in the ‘regain control’ camp.
Even in that same introduction.
Though the very land is cursed, the zealous humans of the Scarlet Crusade still cling to their scattered holdings, obsessed with eradicating the undead and retaking their homeland.
Then the first quest about them entitled The Scarlet Crusade.
You’ll be happy to know we appear to be making progress in the mine, thanks in no small part to your efforts. We can now turn our eyes to other concerns.
My scouts have reported that a detachment of the Scarlet Crusade is setting up a camp southeast of here. The Scarlet Crusade is a despicable organization that hunts us, and they will not rest until every undead–Lich King’s Scourge or no–is destroyed. We must strike first!
Be careful, their unholy zeal makes them dangerous adversaries.
Later two of the At War With The Scarlet Crusade quests.
We are still at war and the Scarlet Crusade grows in strength. The report Executor Arren sent me indicates Scarlet Crusaders have been raiding from the ruined tower in southeastern Tirisfal near the Balnir Farmstead under the command of Captain Vachon.
Kill Vachon along with 5 Scarlet Friars. It should prove to be a devastating blow to the Crusade!
Scarlet Crusaders have been raiding from the ruined tower in northern Tirisfal, past Faol’s Rest. According to the information we have, a ruthless commander named Captain Melrache is in charge of this evil crew.
I am entrusting you now with a special and dangerous mission. Slay Melrache and his two bodyguards, in the name of The Dark Lady.
Supposedly the story Crusader’s Blood also talks about Scarlet Crusade raids on Forsaken territory, they I don’t have a copy myself. The comic Ashes to Ashes has even the Agents discussing attacking them. And in Chronicle 3 page 113, it has this.
The Forsaken and the Horde
Across the sea from Kalimdor, queen Sylvanas Windrunner and her Forsaken were beset by enemies on all sides. The Scarlet Crusade did not care that these undead had reclaimed their wills from the Lich King; the fanatical sect had vowed to eradicate them no matter what.
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Overall, I can’t help but feel that Sylvanas’s fans have created a version of the character that was never actually supported by the lore.
Let’s go further back then the classic intro and look at her introduction as a free-willed undead in WC3:TFT. She made a deal with Garithos in bad faith to get his support to attack the Capital City, and then she murdered him once he ceased being useful.
Sure, Garithos was a racist a-hole, and probably deserved what was coming to him in a meta sense. In fact it’s not even that implausible that Garithos would of eventually attacked the Forsaken on his own.
But nonetheless it established Sylvanas as the sort of character who will make deals in bad faith and murder you once your usefulness has run out. Especially if she perceives you as a potential threat.
Sylvanas’s partnership with the Horde has had a good run. It has lasted way longer then her alliance with Garithos did and for good reason. But nothing that has happened since has convinced me that Sylvanas has developed true loyalty to the Horde.
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This is because originally the Alliance didn’t view Undead as legitimate people in the way the game portrays them now. It’s like those old fantasy stories, where someone wishes to resurrect their loved one. They make a dark pact, but the person who returns to life is only a hollow corpse of what was. When others discover what transpired they are horrified. Alliance originally had no tolerance for undead, putting them down for their own good.
Again this “Forsaken are the true Lordaeron” thing was Cata onward. They were originally just renegade Scourge that lived in broken down buildings filled with spider webs.
This is why Calia is weird because the Light was the opposite. It was proper resurrection back to normal. In the Warrior campaign in Legion you literally die and Odyn resurrects you with his Light Valkyr.
Those raised through necromancy were dark twisted husks, while the Light was true resurrection Jesus style. Now everything is all over the place. Modern Undead lore is a mess.
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Not to mention, the intelligence gathered in early forsaken questing suggests farmer Solliden was supplying the Scarlet Enclave. Also, Arugal’s worgen were killing Forsaken as well. The Forsaken were actually really screwed
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I stand corrected.
The Forsaken rather missed the mark on their mission to eradicate the Scarlets, though. To be fair, they seem insanely hard to keep down.
If it is any interest to anyone here is what it says about Undead (Forsaken) in the original manual.
Bound to the iron will of the tyrant Lich King, the vast undead armies of the Scourge seek to eradicate all life on Azeroth. Led by the banshee Sylvanas Windrunner, one group of undead broke away from the Scourge and freed themselves of the Lich King’s domination. These renegades call themselves the Forsaken. They fight a constant battle not only to retain their freedom from the Scourge, but also to exterminate those who would hunt them as monsters.
With Sylvanas as their banshee queen, the Forsaken have built a dark stronghold beneath the ruins of Lordaeron’s former capital city. This hidden ‘Undercity’ forms a sprawling labyrinth that stretches beneath the haunted woods of the Tirisfal Glades. From this bastion, the Forsaken wage an unending battle against the Scourge as well as the remaining humans who still seek to reclaim their lands. For though the very land is cursed, the zealous humans of the Scarlet Crusade cling to their scattered holdings, obsessed with eradicating the undead and retaking their once-beautiful homeland.
Convinced that the primitive races of the Horde can help them achieve victory over their enemies, the Forsaken have entered an alliance of convenience with the savage orcs and the proud tauren. Harboring no true loyalty for their new allies, they will go to any lengths to ensure their dark plans come to fruition.
As one of the Forsaken, you must eliminate any who pose a threat to the new order – be they human, undead, or otherwise.
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True enough. I always waffle on that. On one hand, they almost come off comical with the level of punishment they take. On the other hand, the idea of a hateful ideology that doesn’t die has some neat aspects.
To be fair, the whole “Lordaeron belongs to the Forsaken - always and forever” thing seems to be over now.
Most of their lives, you say?
I dont know how old Sylvanas was when she died. Somewhere between Vareesa and Alleria. But I dont think time matters much in Warcraft. Elves who used magic for thousands of years get shown up by humans who are a couple decades old. And Rangers who have trained for thousands of years can find Nathanos as an equal.
I know it’s a popular thing to now say “See Sylvanas was TRUE EBUL the whole time and people who liked her were just headcanoning!!!” but I actually feel something of the opposite. People who dislike Sylvanas are ignoring all of the indicators that point in the other direction and willingly overlooking poor writing to justify their dislike of the character.
Because these people, like Pyrogar, are currently supported by Blizzard’s trash narrative, they feel justified in dumping all over the character, and people who were her fans have quit in disgust over the way the story’s been handled, leaving the anti-Sylvanas crowd by and large with no opposition.
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Prior to BfA, Sylvanas was a complicated character. A ruthless sociopath, to be sure, but still with a hint of the person she had once been. I still remember the feels I got the first time I completed the quest line that culminated in the Lament of the Highborne. Sylvanas was interesting, because you couldn’t predict exactly what she would do. This was the character, for example, who argued most forcefully against the attack on Theramore because she felt it exposed her people to danger. The one who personally attacked Arthas in Ice Crown Citadel once she finally got close to him, yet was still wise enough to help us get out of there when she realized he was too powerful in that place. As recently as Legion, she led the attack, saving Varian himself.
She was a terrible enemy, but was also the one racial leader on either faction, save perhaps Jaina, who really spent time with the PC. If you were a Horde player, she was almost chummy with you. She could do hideous things, but it always felt pragmatic - it wasn’t that she enjoyed causing pain, she just didn’t care as long as it served her interests. Her use of Blight on Gilneas was a perfect example - she defied Garrosh precisely because Blight was the logical weapon to use to minimize casualties to her people, and she could care less about his desire for a port, or about what it did to the Gilneans.
She was one of my favourite characters in the game because she had villainous and heroic attributes. She was the least stereotypical character in the game. But with BfA, she’s just another bad guy.
They’ve made her boring.
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So one might say she was…
morally grey?
Not really. I actually think Carm just above has the right read on it. Sylvanas was defined by her consistent “inconsistency”. Or rather you could never be completely sure what kind of reaction a given scenario would provoke. That of the hardend banshee queen? A remnant of dutiful and honorable ranger general? Something new from these two aspects colliding? We’ve seen examples of all of the above in Sylvans before and given her history it made sense to see all that fighting for space in her head. The debate came from trying to figure out which of view points would win out when the game eventually gave her the focus again.
Quality of the actual writing aside, that seems to be at the core of most peoples complaints. That they picked the “wrong” aspect of her character make dominate. Or at least the most boring given her current circumstances.
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There’s a difference between hating a character and seeing the character as a fulfilling a villian role. Or that the charcter’s more enthusiastic fans were much to quick to explain away the signs that she was headed further and further down a dark path that were there all along.
But that doesn’t mean I hate the character, I can love a character and want to see them suffer the consequences they deserve.
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But this is actually in furtherance of my point. Posts like the OP’s that say “she was always super horrible scummy” are missing the point that there WAS complexity. It’s just that those willing to point out the other side of it are now few and far between.
I don’t even count myself as a Sylvanas fan, but I greatly despise what the writing team has done with her, and it irks me to just see the dogpile continue uncontested.
See above about inconsistency. You can say that “she was headed down the dark path all along” but if they did a heroic redemption (prior to BfA) you would also have been able to say “she was headed for redemption all along.” Both stances require that you throw out a good chunk of lore about the character.
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I think maybe I didn’t understand your earlier post, since it felt like you thought she was headed towards redemption all along before BfA: