Sylvanas, true to her Classic objetives

Lore Story Forum
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This group fights a constant battle. Not only to retain it’s freedom from the Scourge, but also, to slaughter those who would hunt them as monsters.

That and the …“no true loyalty for their allies… ensure their dark plans come to fruition…” and “masacre anyone that poses a threat to the new order”.

Back then, people said it was one of the best (and spooky) starting videos, now people get angry at evil characters taking the lead, which they’ve been doing since WC3 Undead campaign anyone?

The Forsaken and Horde have grown closer over the years, to the point that Sylvannas was even able to become Warchief. It’s only with the bad writing of BfA…

I wouldn’t trust a Zombie’s intent… ever :sweat_smile:. And, I rather not stop thinking about bad writing or end up incredibly frustrated. Better fill in with my own imagination.

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It’s funny that even now they still have Orgrimmar orphans questioning Sylvanas’ loyalty during Children’s Week.

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Sylvanas becoming Warchief made sense at the time.

She led the attack on the Broken Shore. Quite heroically - go rewatch the cinematic. She then successfully executed Vol’jin’s last order, kept the Horde intact, and personally pulled him out. She was the senior surviving Horde leader on his death, and a very experienced general, which was an important factor in the middle of a war against the Legion. By the narrative to that point, she was the logical choice for the next Warchief.

It’s the events of BfA that have subsequently turned her into a bad choice. That’s just a decision the writers made, though. They could just have easily continued her Legion arc of slowly coming into her own as Warchief. But they opted to hit her, and the whole faction, with the villain bat.

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She isn’t a very good leader for anyone but the Forsaken though. She doesn’t have any charisma. She works in the shadows. She is amoral. She doesn’t care for the cultural values of any of the living Horde races outside of Goblin utilitarianism.

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You make good points but that’s not why she was made warchief. Even Vol’jin didn’t trust her to be warchief but the spirits told him to do it so against his better judgement he choose the second worse person to take the mantle

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None of these were factors in the decision. The only actual factor was “Da spirits… dey whisper a name.”

And now it turns out even that wasn’t real.

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Oh and I called this last expac. Though my theory was it was the legion pretending to be the spirits like they did with the orcs on draenor.

Lets stop making policy decisions on what the spirits say from now on…

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That’s true, but if you had to pick a Warchief at the time, Sylvanas was a logical candidate, is what I’m saying. It’s not like it came out of left field. She really was the senior surviving leader and an experienced general who had just demonstrated her leadership and bravery, not to mention personal skill in battle, which is a big factor for the Horde. If you recall, the Horde cutscene after she was appointed was very positive - she gave an inspiring speech and the Horde was firmly rallied around her.

Hell, the Horde is still firmly rallied around her, apparently.

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I like to point out that the two other Horde leaders at that pyre were Baine and Lor’themar.

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I don’t follow.

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Baine and Lor’themar have now turned against Sylvanas when people used to cite them at the pyre as evidence of the Horde supporting Sylvanas. Clearly, things can change, and the parts around her being made warchief will not necessarily hold up later.

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Carm, I like you, but no it didn’t and here’s why:

1st and foremost, and this is a big one; many members of the Horde are still incredibly skeptical and distrusting of Sylvanas after the Wrathgate incident, regardless of whether or not she was responsible, it was still orchestrated out of her city by her people. An average Orc, Tauren, Troll, or Blood elf member would not be so quick to accept someone who they have never trusted from the beginning, and even less so after a catastrophe like that which may have resulted in the death of beloved friends or family members.

2nd, she has a history of disputing, and at times, disobeying authority. Like during the Gilneas campaign in which she disobeyed direct orders to not use the blight. Then at the end of SoO, when Vol’jin is unanimously promoted to Warchief, she shows an unwillingness to follow his orders even though he’s one of the very few people on the Horde who she actually respected. Bad soldiers, make even worse leaders.

3rd, Saurfang and Eitrigg exist and they’re very much alive. Not only that, but they are far more skilled at warfare and leadership than Sylvanas is, having been at it for most their lives. In addition to having more experience fighting the Legion as well participating in the climactic fight against archimonde and his armies during the 3rd war.

4th, who the heck actually “likes” Sylvanas. The Horde mostly tolerates the Forsaken at best, and mostly because they have land we want on the EK, but besides that, have there been any bonds made between Sylvanas and other leaders? Even her former second-in-command, Lor’themar, is incredibly distasteful of her and chooses only to respect her for the valiant commander she was in life, not the monster she has become in death. Heck, the only reason she was even allowed to join the Horde because of a Bloodhoof, ironically enough; Cairne, who saw the Forsaken as fellow outcasts much like the rest of the Horde races, and Thrall and the other leaders heeded his wisdom and allowed it. Not because they wanted something as unnatural or inherently evil as Forsaken , but to give them a chance to overcome their dark nature much like the Orcs once did. Something which after time and again, have failed to do, yet they blame others for their completely justified prejudice and hatred towards them.

5th, Sylvanas leads a nation of undead, she lacks the compassion or empathy to lead a faction of primarily living beings, no matter how militarily adept she may be. Most races of the Horde can’t get shot in the heart with an arrow or have an arm get cut off and be perfectly fine, most races of the Horde can’t survive weeks on end without food or nourishment, most races of the Horde aren’t so fanatically loyal to their leaders that they would compromise their own morals and beliefs. These are traits exclusive to the Forsaken and all undead.

I can name more reasons about how literally anyone besides Baine, would have been more fit to lead after Vol’jin’s death, but I think my point has been made. It did not make any sense for Vol’jin to appoint Sylvanas when there were other people in the room who he trusted more and were more capable of leading the Horde against the Legion than she was.

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I think it sort of makes sense in Legion but it’s not exactly a point in her favor. Like it took an interplanetary invasion, the near destruction of the faction at Broken Shore, the death of the Warchief and a deus ex machina vision of her saving us all before the Horde follow her. Like, clearly, this is not a natural choice for Warchief.

Ever seen the kids toy where you fit the colored shapes in the hole? Legion is where the hole is so big almost anything could fit, and plot devices like Vol’jin’s vision help lubricate the shape. After that the kid gets overconfident and tries to shove it through the next hole which is smaller. Trying to force the Horde through a faction war with her is not going to work kid, at least twist it sideways or modify don’t just- oh no, please stop… bang you caused the whole thing to shatter.

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34

The classic intro more or less implies cutting out a kingdom to call home, as well as lay waste to the Scourge. A difficult feat to undertake when one’s neighbors are the Alliance and one’s main target of obsession is halfway across the world, on an icy skyscraper.

Her ruthlessness and apathy aren’t under question, she’s totally evil. What is under question is her staggeringly blatant display of being evil, instead of being subtle and smart evil. She’s doing things that could burn needed bridges, sacrifice seats of power by getting rid of keys to power without much rhyme or reason and more. That’s the accusation of character assassination.

She is best described as a spider, not a loud and proud conqueror.

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She got ideas in her head of being a goddess of destruction the moment she was exposed to Azerite.

Azerite gives people multiple sound ideas that give them a rush of power which is the last thing you give to a Narcissist. The Azerite turned her from a spider to a loud and proud conqueror due to the rush of power it gave her.

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Which at the time only included ensuring their freedom and killing those who would hunt them as monsters.

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That’s fair.

That’s also fair.

Saurfang and Eitrigg are nowhere near as old as Sylvanas. She was Ranger General for a good long while. Maybe they understand the machinations of the Horde better than Sylvanas, but she’s had a long career to study and master the lance board. That long list of service is what made her seem more than viable for the position of Warchief against an infinite army.

Eitrigg would be a good leader, as he’s been doing it for most of his life, though Saurfang intentionally was never given the job because he’s been seeking a battle to die in.

Fair, though the Forsaken condition is not inherently evil. It is the condition that makes the man and either changes them, breaks them or puts them in denial and cling to what’s old and used to work for them. As for ‘failing to do so’ and blaming others for ‘justified prejudice’? I’m not sure what you’re referring to.

The Forsaken faction is morally questionable in that there is no measure of what is ‘too much’ except for what the leading individual deems excessive or unnecessary. Is it their war against Gilneas that made them ‘fail’? Because it can absolutely be justified. Gilneas was apart of the Alliance of Lordaeron before they split off on their own, then when Lordaeron was falling, turned them away at the gate. That can be justified as military reprimand for betrayal.

It’s not as if she’s blind to that. It isn’t as if she’s always been undead and she hasn’t been undead ‘that’ long, in the grand measure of time. Food and the mortal condition is certainly something that can be taken into an account for a military force. As for this;

I keep looping back to this part, because it’s integral to the Forsaken narrative; they are not extremist mind slaves. They don’t just rise from the dead and say ‘I’ll do everything you want me to, including jump off a bridge.’. The whole point of the Forsaken is individualism, even if they share a common enemy and going off by themselves could be potentially fatal to the point where they can strongly hold the opinion that they need each other, they are not the monolithic Scourge.

Now, while their war for survival against the Scarlet Crusade and the Alliance might have convinced them that all but the most extreme tactics may be needed for victory, this does not make them fanatics, nor is that exclusive only to the undead.

While it is fair to say ‘she wouldn’t be a good Warchief because of her selfish streak and that she’s an outsider to the Horde’, to go beyond and say ‘aha! I knew it, they’re irredeemably evil, rotten to the core, incapable and without merit! The Forsaken never should have been part of the Horde!’ doesn’t really do their story justice while hooked up with the Horde. Sylvanas was a functioning leader during a time of war and she delivered on that.

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This is like the original version of “[Jaina] went too far. Killed too many.”

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You don’t give leave to your intelligence when you’re given the detonator to an atom bomb.

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I don’t know how you mean.