The are already convinced that they have a good twist.
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They are already convinced that we think it’s a good twist.
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Let’s say I agree with your entire list, for purposes of the discussion. What next? What do you suggest we, or Blizzard, should do about this situation?
Yeah, so you go through and come with “reasons” why as many Alliance actions are excusable as possible. Then you will condemn Horde actions with a broad "there is no excuse for that. Most of it is old hat and hasn’t been settled yet, Alliance objectives not withstanding. I’m not going to waste my time rehashing it.
The bottom line is both sides have a long list of grievances against the other. Now maybe you are willing to try and claim that the POV of half the player base is objectively wrong and will try and argue that until blue in the fact. Good luck with that.
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Delete the horde.
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I honestly don’t know. I feel like we’ve gone past the “realistic” point of no return with BfA. Vol’jin was an attempt to steer it back to how it was before, but they took that, did nothing with it for an entire expansion and then threw it down the drain for “faction leader death balance” in Legion and to insert Sylvanas as Warchief.
Obviously the answer isn’t “butcher them to the last or put them in camps”, because that’s infeasible for an MMORPG that’s supposed to last like WoW. The idea would be to put someone somewhat reasonable in the Warchief’s throne to try and change the image of the Horde. It has it’s problems, namely that it’s been done already, which isn’t good for an expansion that already reeks of MoP 2.0., and people are just sick and tired of the Warchief roulette routine. Maybe a Horde Coalition Council replaces the Warchief, kinda like the Council of Three Hammers but Horde-wide.
But assuming changing Warchiefs again is what happens, unlike Vol’jin, it has to be lasting. It can’t just be “hey, we’re putting this person as Warchief, Horde is changing for real guys!” only to immediately go “I know they didn’t do much for a whole expansion but we’re changing gears again, all aboard the MoP 3.0. train”. It has to stick. And it doesn’t have to be World of "Peace"craft, but taking a break from constant all-out war, even for a Cold War period like in Classic WoW, would be a welcome change that still allows for minor faction conflicts.
But there’s still the problem that after this expansion, unless in the near future they do something absolutely miraculous with Saurfang, people are going to be dissatisfied with him and may no longer want him as Warchief. Nobody really liked Baine in the first place. And I don’t think they’ll go with the Loa Emperor of the Horde Vol’jin option, but at this point who knows. Who’s left to pick up the pieces and be a Warchief for the Horde that won’t be another Garrosh or Sylvanas? Hell, most of the OG4 won’t even have leaders anymore starting in 8.1.5. What do we even do with that?
Gallywix is greedy and cares about himself and profit more than anything else. He seems more like a “man behind the man” type who’ll advise the Warchief in taking decisions that are sound for the Horde that they can’t possibly ignore, even while knowing that Gallywix gains something from it for his own ends. Makes for an interesting character when he’s in the limelight, but a poor choice for a Warchief.
Lor’themar could also be interesting, and the Blood Elves have been around for a long time now. Also an interesting choice given what happened in MoP, but there’s the possible controversy with having an elf Warchief (Sylvanas represents one of the OG4 and still got some flak for it IIRC).
Most of the other faction leaders are too new in my opinion, but Mayla or Thalyssra could be interesting choices for Warchief as well I guess?
Man, I wish I had a better answer, but at this point I just don’t know. Feels like we’ve gone too deep down the rabbit hole that is this trainwreck of an expansion. It’s like toothpaste, comes out of the tube but you can’t put it back in. Maybe bring back Thrall? That just seems like we’re reaching a “break glass in case of emergency” level, but it almost seems like it to me.
No s***, sherlock.
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Because a goblin sabetour was responsible for blowing up Bael’dun Keep and killing Twinbraids’ men.
It’s pretty difficult to differ between them and scourge. Especially nowadays.
I mean, idk what human would actually trust an undead to have peaceful negotiations back then. Of course they’re going to be kille on the spot.
After the Orcs tried to attempted genocide them; twice if we count the Draenei.
After a Sunreaver agent used its’ portal network to steal the divine bell from Darnassus.
Which doesn’t count since she didn’t do it in the end.
After Sylvanas decides that she wants to use Azerite being mined to manufacture weapons to use against the Alliance.
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You think attempted mass murder doesn’t count as a bad thing? You’d probably typically go away to prison for life for that sort of thing.
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Regarding Jaina and her killing people in the purge, it’s an actual bug made with how WoW handles aggro.
Jaina casts a teleport which has a larger radius than her default aggro range, but the way aggro works is she won’t realize there’s a blood elf citizen who ran into her shorter normal “aggro” range.
If the citizens don’t run into her regular aggro range during the time she’s focusing on teleporting, she won’t every cast frostbolt.
Source that it wasn’t intended? Only claim I heard about bugs related to it was from a writer about a cutscene not playing properly, and they since deleted the blog.
Im not saying it isn’t a bad thing, Im just saying she didn’t end up doing it and therefore does not count as something the Alliance did.
But she did end up attempting it. So it does count ‘attempted mass murder’. Which is what Tannaril said, ‘the attempt mass murder of civilians in Orgrimmar’.
Attempted mass murder isn’t as bad as mass murder. But it is still bad and the attempt still happened.
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Let me rephrase that: What do you suggest we, or Blizzard, should realistically do about this situation?
And i can even argue that it wouldn’t be considered an “attempt” as much as her “intention”. She didn’t actually go through with sending that tidal wave of doom through the streets of Orgrimmar, she was in the process of summoning the elementals to go about doing it.
It’s like-and I hate to use this comparison- talking someone out of committing suicide. The person intends on doing it, but hasen’t actually gone about doing it yet, and therefore haven’t “attempted” anything so much as “intended” to do something.
She didn’t actually go about trying to kill the people yet, but she was intending to and was making the preparations to go about it until dear friends Thrall and Kalecgos showed up to talk her out of it.
Point is there’s a difference between an intention and an attempt. She intended to do it and was getting ready to make an attempt, but she she didn’t actually attempt it. Attempting it would have been if she was in the process of sending the wave to Orgrimmar before she was stopped.
If I buy a gun, aim it at someone, and try to pull the trigger several times only for someone to wrestle the gun away from me, that’s rather indisputably an attempt.
If you want to use suicide, it would be as if I’ve obtained the razor blades and I’m physically trying to get them to my wrists and I’m being stopped. Whether or not I’ve succeeded in slitting my wrists or actually killing myself, I’m sure it would be considered attempted suicide.
It would only be ‘intended’ had I not take numerous steps to carry out the action. Such as getting the blades, finding a private place, and trying to carry out the act.
She absolutely did. She actually tries to send the wave several times. It is only because Thrall counters it that it is stopped long enough for them to get her to stop. Hence why I consider my first comparison best. She got the weapon (Focusing Iris), aimed it (went to the ocean and bound all the elementals), and tried to fire it (manifestly tried to launch the wave).
I would suggest reading or rereading the chapter in Tides of War. She tries several times to send it, struggling against Thrall to do so.
With a smirk and a simple flick of her wrist, Jaina released the tidal wave.
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I will say that Sylvanas would never have truly made a good or lasting Warchief simply because her priorities by necessity could never be the well-being of the Horde as a whole but the continuation of her own damned existence by any means necessary.
Blizzard had the opportunity to teach her an important unlife-changing lesson after she committed suicide in Icecrown, but instead they did the complete opposite and pushed her onto a path that was always going to end with her demise hated by allies and foes alike. Had she truly learned the consequences of her actions and saw it as a crucial opportunity to try to redeem herself for her past actions, I think it would have made her a much more interesting, insightful, and more importantly sustainable character.
Now I know this is going to get me some flak, but the Forsaken playerbase is also partially to blame for this because so many seem to like being the ‘bad’ boys and girls but think it’s unfair or unrealistic to have consequences applied to said mindset. To be fair, I think most just don’t want a Salvation Army Sylvanas and neither does anyone else.
But I don’t think making Sylvanas start questioning the decisions that brought her to such a low point and slowly working to make some gestures to show she is willing to consider better options would ruin her as a character.
At this point though, I honestly believe her character is beyond saving. That’s not to say Blizzard WON’T try to give her a get out of WoW Hell free card even after all of this, but even if they did it would just come out looking like straight up favoritism and ruin her character even further.
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They could have used her elevation to Warchief as a catalyst for developing her character in a way that didn’t double down on villain. So I don’t agree that she would never have made a good Warchief because there were options.
Now I know this is going to get me some flak, but the Forsaken playerbase is also partially to blame for this because so many seem to like being the ‘bad’ boys and girls but think it’s unfair or unrealistic to have consequences applied to said mindset. To be fair, I think most just don’t want a Salvation Army Sylvanas and neither does anyone else.
I get what you’re saying here, but it’s not the Forsaken player base at which you should waggle your finger. It’s Blizzard. From the day WoW went live, the Forsaken have been portrayed more or less as villains. With some NPC exceptions, the Forsaken have been doing shady things or worse since day one. And it’s perfectly within reason for Forsaken players to draw inspiration from what’s in the game.
At this point though, I honestly believe her character is beyond saving. That’s not to say Blizzard WON’T try to give her a get out of WoW Hell free card even after all of this, but even if they did it would just come out looking like straight up favoritism and ruin her character even further.
Well arguably she should be beyond saving, short of evidence being presented that she was acting against her will (which will be a cheesy story development if it comes to that).
To me, the best outcome we can get is her getting ousted as Warchief and she goes off to lead some thing else. Maybe she goes and fights Bolvar for the Lich King mantle or something. At least it wouldn’t be Garrosh 2.0 and it wouldn’t be “zomg old gods did it!”
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His answer IS realistic… is basically what is happening in BfA. Horde core identity got murdered by villain batting and the remanents of the corpse are slowly but steadily being rewritten as cheap copy cats of the Alliance core identity (ergo why nuSaurfang only understood he had to act after Anduin peptalks him and Baine only acted after it was the brother of an Alliance aligned pal the one in risk of getting hurt).
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Preaching to the choir.