Sylvanas canonically bisexual now nice

It’s not relevant what they call it in the game. We would call it species. I am of course arguing outside of fictional Azeroth

There is non from me. Didn’t see you making such weak points in some time.

I don’t care. Interesting? It was boring to me. At least she is the leader of a nation. This seems fitting in a political sense.

Name me one prominent Blood Elf aside from Anastarian that was in love with another Blood Elf?

Khael’tas x human potential
Windrunner sisters x human potential
Lorthemar, also nope.
Nothing bad, but it’s rather strange to me. At least one couple would make sense.

You can’t write your way out of this bad take.
No it wouldn’t diminish her and it wouldn’t have a bad influence on her “lust for men” you like about her. It really wouldn’t change anything.
Aside from perhaps making you uncomfortable.

Note, I’m not saying she is, or should be. But there is nothing “diminishing” to it if she was.

Yes it is, since that is the lore and game we are discussing.

That seems like some fantastical assumption with only your opinion as a basis.

It is just as likely that if they suddenly popped into our reality, and they used the term “race”, we would use the term they used.

Your assumption of what we might use in real life is irrelevant, when compared to what they actually use in the lore and game.

Yes.

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It seems to me that something went wrong.

Interracial marriage is a combination between Asian-European-Congoid-Indian-hybrids (elf-elf).
Interspecies marriage - at least a human-ape (elf-troll).

Monkey - five hundred dollars or pounds? Marvelous.

It’s not relevant at all, no. It doesn’t matter if the Warcraft races are unfamiliar with real world terms. You would have a point if someone would argue about a in-game view. Which would be rather silly, because it’s about the fetishes of writers.

Let’s be real. The only reason why all the Windrunner sisters had to get a human partner, very specific a human, is for the gamer fantasy of a sexy women at their side. That’s it. Or rather the writers.

We aren’t arguing about something like Beren and Lúthien.

Of course not. We wouldn’t simply change biological terms.
We would also be very different from Azeroth humans and likley not… as compatible.

Funny you ignored this. I didn’t think you are so… conservative on this topic.

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Let’s be real, that’s how it started but just because it started that way doesn’t mean that each relationship isn’t unique because they all are. I feel like your only valid arguement against is that it’s repetitive and was based on male fantasy.

I’m telling you that both Sylvanas and Nathanos, and Alleria and Turalyon’s relationships have evolved into some pretty unique and positive relationships in the Warcraft Universe.

Lore can evolve, it is thankfully not stagnant.

As for the “very specific fantasy” I’m not sure if you are talking about the arm candy angle but I would rather see both relationships as each woman having a strong, respectful, loyal partner at her side, or is that your real issue and angle?

I’m not sure what “very specific fantasy” you are personally opposed to and using ‘self insert’ lately has some very negative and harmful opinions attatched to it. Are you one of those people?

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That’s my argument. I’m not saying such relationships are generally a bad thing. I’m not saying not one has evolved a bit more. Even though especially Veressa was really not needed in this category.

My other point is, at some point it looks weird if every single prominent Blood Elf is more interested in humans or anything non Blood Elf. It’s almost a trope for them at this point. Once again, not a huge problem, but still strange.

The specific angle was the one you recognized. The origin of their relationships, why they were given human partners. Specifically humans for that reason alone.

What? Yes I think self inserts aren’t a great story tool. That’s my preference. Of course there are entire stories with the purpose of being able to self insert in to the characters. In case of the Windrunners (originally) it’s pathetic in my eyes. It depends on context.

I’m also no triggered like others about the idea of bi characters existing.

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Ya but the thing is you also have to consider the lore. All three of the Windrunner sisters were politically opposed to Quel’thalas being isolationists and the xenophobia of the blood elves, all three of them defied political rule to support the Alliance. So that in itself justifies they all marrying outside thier race.

They all married humams of Lordaeron which they bonded with due to proximity mostly, it’s less about ‘human potential’ anymore. It started out like that sure, but it’s become bigger and better than that. We know halfelves are a race within themselves and were common in Lordaeron… this is why.

That’s not being bi, that’s incest, which is another range of taboos.

Sylvannas didn’t. She didn’t have THAT kind of relationship with Nathanos. She was however his main sponsor into his entry into the Rangers, the only Human to have ever done so.

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I mean, the Windrunner sisters had “proximity” to plenty of elves as well. Wanting to cooperate with humanity to combat a mutual enemy, first, isn’t in defiance of political rule for Quel’thalas. Hell, they TAUGHT the humans how to wield magic, and even before the Alliance, the elves and humans had a magical Alliance with Dalaran for years. Isolationism and a desire to control your own borders isn’t a product of xenophobia.

The trend with the Windrunner Sisters and human partners started with the Tides of Darkness novel, where Alleria, overcome with grief due to the loss of her brother, sought comfort in the arms of Turalyon, a man who’s call on the holy light was literally weaponized racism, this was before Blizz turned him into a Draenei weeb.

Next was Rohnin and Vereesa, which imo is the most heinous of the three. Richard Knaack literally reduced Vereesa to a trophy wife for his self insert. Early in the novel Day of the Dragon, she was described as having a reckless attitude and fighting style, compared to a human. Considering we never actually SEE this recklessness, and her attitude is anything BUT reckless, this wasn’t Knaak making a note of her personality, this was intended to isolate her from Elven culture and break down the mores and folkways that serves as barriers of entry for human/elf romance. The framing of the novel, it is made clear that her purpose was to be a romance option for Rhonin, and not much else.

Finally, Sylvanas and Nathanos were made a couple because the community shipped them. Quite literally the sourcebook where Sylvanas brought Nathanos into the Farstriders was a fan fiction that won a writing contest, made canon by Blizzard. I think this one had the chance to be the most interesting, but Nathanos was hijacked by Danuser, and the famous, creepy twitter roleplay took place that that, in part, explains the horrendous writing Sylvanas has had the last several years.

I am with Kazthan on this one. Sure, it is a bit more nuanced that he is admitting, but he is not wrong, and it is not even reserved to the Windrunner Sisters. Blizzard has a long history of fetishizing the elves and making them accessories to male characters. We saw it in both Wolfheart and A Little Patience, where Varian had to school that silly woman Tyrande on matters of war (ignoring the fact that she is infinitely more experienced than he could ever hope to be). There is of course the infamous “Hush Tyrande” line, ignoring that the Kaldorei are matriarchal, a Kaldorei male would never speak out of line that way and expect to keep his head.

The list goes on. The Windrunner sisters are just a small example of a greater underlining problem that some of us have been saying for years, only to be laughed at and dismissed. Only now, with the lawsuits, are people starting to listen. But even still, vocal opposition is not silence. You are the case in point.

I thought we talked about not engaging with Ren.

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They did have that kind of relationship. One does not give jewellery to a colleague, nor does one purposefully arrange to stay overnight at their colleague’s house for their “company” if it’s purely platonic.

I would love to hear your takes on how Tyrande is also just an accessory to men. Please continue, don’t just stop at Sylvanas by all means. Let’s talk about how Knaak also made Tyrande a self insert trophy for both Illidan and Malfurian.

You are absolutely right Warcraft needs to evolve in this regard. This isn’t just an issue with Sylvanas. But what I like about Sylvanas and Nathanos’s relationship is it seems to subvert this by having him as her trophy and not the other way around… and he’s not even a stereotypical trophy, he’s not an attractive man, he’s just skilled because she taught him everything she knew. “Human Potential” more like Human investment. lol.

Doesn’t help that, if I recall correctly, I believe all of the Human/High Elf pairings are due to Blizzard Writer Self Inserts

Which, you know, *gestures vaguely at everything *

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Context matters here. Nathanos is a Danuser self-insert. Regardless if Nathanos pre-existed him, Nathnos’ appearance change coincides with Danuser’s role as lead narrative designer, the appearance looks similar to a thinner and younger Danuser. It was also around this time Sylvanas’ and Nathano’s romantic side went from unsubstantiated rumor, to an implied reality. Pair this with his Twitter roleplay where he is going by “Stevanos Blizzcaller” and talking about how “His Queen” is slave driving him at work. Suddenly, what you describe as a subverted trope suddenly seems like fetishized fantasy being injected into the Warcraft story.

I’ve followed Danuser on Twitter long enough to know that he doesn’t give off predatory vibes, in this day in age of Blizzard that’s important. He’s posted cringe tweets, sure, but I don’t think he’s fetishizing Sylvanas. There are a lot more WoW fans that fetishize Sylvanas and I’ve experienced a lot more disgruntled male fans who hate him for breaking thier RP immersion that she’s thier waifu, nor can they sexualize her or objectify her because making her Warchief and covering her up, forced these men to give her begrudging respect. (this started in Legion btw, long before she commited genocide so that’s not an excuse)

You are right. Context is everything. Even context to popular criticism. Maybe it’s steeped also in ingrained mysogyny. Lets talk about the radicalizatition of Sylvanas criticism, because that has become something toxic as of late. I wish you were an ally on this, we both agree the way women are treated in this franchise is not okay, by writers and by players.

Yeah, I never thought that of several people at Blizz. Which is my own fault. I was vocal about sexism in Blizz’s writing for years, but for some reason I never connected it with the higher ups at the company. I knew it was a problem, but I didn’t know how bad it was.

But yeah, you following him on twitter doesn’t mean anything. But to your credit, he doesn’t give me pred vibes either, but he does give me weird neckbeard addicted to The Hub vibes.

He is fetishizing Sylvanas for SURE, specifically from a submissive position.

And he is one of MANY writers at Blizz who had done the same with female elves.

What exactly do you mean by this?

Thank you, Aki. I appreciate this conversation. So yeah the subservience thing. That’s the problem. In the narrative it’s presented as a positive thing. In Stormhiem he doesn’t chase after her knowing she’s possibly in danger, he doesn’t white knight her at all he says “she can handle herself.” This from the female gaze is like “Wow!!” So naturally this ship became popular with women and progressive men because it represented equality and a modern relationship. Somehow that was twisted into he licks her boots. (I feel like this is a veiled attack on progressive straight men in general because they reject the idea that masculinity is tied to opressing women)

But then popular streamers started calling him a “simp” and fragile masculinity took over. He’s actually not a bad character. Thier relationship is too progressive for the audience. Basically. The more you feed into that “he’s a simp” mentality the more you are feeding fragile masculinity and mysogynistic dudebros threatened by equality.

Why?

My gaze is female and I am certainly not wowed by it. It is a statement of fact, and Nathanos had other problems to deal with. That doesn’t represent anything.

… He is a bad character, because he is quite literally the self insert of a Sylvanas simp lol.

I am sure plenty of men don’t like him because he is a submissive man in a relationship with a dominate woman. But they don’t suddenly make this relationship progressive. The relationship is the fantasy of a fat neckbeard who lets his weird dominatrix fantasies permeate the story.

It may just not be your cup of tea. There’s lots of WoW ships that I just don’t get. Sylvanas and Nathanos’s relationship is a niche, I happen to like this niche.

As far as straight ships go it’s different than anything else in Warcraft and that’s nice. It’s worth fighting for because it does break stereotypes and tropes. It subverts the typical straight ship.

I don’t know what to say. I don’t project BDSM on this ship. :woman_shrugging: some do but I’m not going to kink shame them over it. I don’t have anything against femdom malesub roleplay, nor do I find it sexist. I equally don’t think men who like this kink to be less masculine for it.

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I don’t like the Maiev and Illidan ship, because it is romanticizing abuse.

Yet, I think the Sylvanas and Nathano’s ship is worse because it is literally a writer at Blizzard forcing his sexual fantasies on his audience. It is straight out of a DnD horror story forum.

It is disgusting. And renders Sylvanas down to a sexual object.