[SV] [Dragonflight] Survival Talent Tree Concerns

Classes Hunter
61

That… has nothing to do with it being melee and everything to do with a terrible tree.

Or would you insist that it’d somehow be fine if only it were Steady Shot and Arcane Shot instead of Kill Command and Mongoose?

“Me build, me spend” alone is not going to be fun regardless of one’s range from their target.

Survival’s also been hardly alone in these Talent Tree transition woes. Other specs are likewise currently obliged to take minimal complexity in favor of throughput or are being offered braindead 2-to-3-button builds at competitive power levels. Such is a problem with the tree designs themselves putting that complexity at (excessive) cost, not just per the individual nodes, but per the relatively inefficient paths by which to reach them.

The trees are getting better per iteration, but for anyone who liked having a solid playflow and floor to kit depth, many trees still fall well short of the existing talent grids (let alone what’s currently available through borrowed powers).

1 Like
62

I was highlighting how they clearly don’t have any plan or direction for melee SV. If SV were still ranged and based on its pre-Legion model it would be far easier to build an interesting and workable tree that works with its baseline tree rather than against it.

63

By what metric?

I’m not inclined to disagree there, but any warrants and heuristics that would source that conclusion could apply evenly to BM and MM.

SV’s available playstyle options will have been stable for just as long as MM and BM, all three specs continuing their BfA design philosophies into Dragonflight.

On Enhance, Lightning Bolt became a resource-spender, the inverse of its original function.
Legion Resto would get for free damage functionality bonuses that Elemental, the damage spec, would have to pay resource for.
On Fury, all baseline spenders become builders, completely flipping the original class on its head.
Arms removes core rotational CDs’ impact on rotation.
WoD Ret would turn Word of Glory from a heal into a ranged attack.

Specs regularly have, do now, and will continue to, utterly contradict parts of their base skills. Specs’ playflows need not be held hostage to identical function for every baseline skill nor to identical class trees.

We play specs, not classes. Why sacrifice the depth and enjoyment of specs just to save a player 10 seconds’ of tooltip-reading time for a skill’s baseline change towards spec cohesion against the minutes of going through their talents and borrowed powers anyways?

  • Basically passive DoT
  • Short CD shot
  • Long CD shot
  • Casted generator
  • AA procs
  • Procs from ticks of specific sources of DoT damage
  • 2-minute CD greatly increases available GCD APM
  • Add active talent actions as further CDs

Tell me… am I describing Venthyr MM, Dragonflight MM, or WoD RSV?

Wait, those playflow characteristics can be met by all three.

Just as by…

  • DoT
  • Builder
  • ST spender
  • AoE spender only worth using / usable every few GCDs
  • Rotational CD
  • 90s CD

Am I talking about old BM, or the alpha’s SV least-complexity meme build?

Whether it holds a spear or a musket, little depth is little depth.
Whether it holds a greataxe or longbow, significant depth is significant depth.

While the constraints of playing in/from melee with limited opportunities by which to counter would-be downtime naturally adds a bit more depth, no amount of range is going to make a lack of kit interesting, nor will a lack of range make a good kit uninteresting.

4 Likes
64

There’s a coherent theme for BM and MM. I would argue Arcane Shot is out of place but that purely exists out of nostalgia; in fact it was almost replaced with a physical damage equivalent in BFA. Otherwise BM is sensibly built around the pet interaction and MM is built around long-range sharpshooting. In contrast SV mixes random elements together. What does Wildfire Bomb have to do with Raptor Strike and Kill Command? Those are entirely different visions/approaches.

Doubling down on a bad design doesn’t justify it or make it stable. Their SV outline, or lack thereof, since BFA has been comical and they’re kidding themselves if they think it’s a good long-term foundation for the spec.

It was pretty bad in Legion but they did a better job of covering it up.

Multi-Shot also costs less as MM v.s. BM. I’m not concerned with spec-specific enhancements/modifications of baseline abilities. I’m concerned with the entire baseline model of the Hunter class not working for SV. You lose the ranged weapon you start with and you have to rely on an animation-only ranged weapon because apparently the two generic Warrior ripoff melee attacks are more important. They clearly can’t escape designing Hunters as a ranged weapon class to this day which is why classwide additions like Resonating Arrow and Flayed Shot are ranged themed. So it just makes the melee nonsense look more-and-more unwelcome and out-of-place.

In MoP it was a much more sensible approach of modification. For example, Steady Shot got replaced by Cobra Shot for SV and BM and Multi-Shot had a different added passive for each effect. This helped make each spec feel like a meaningful and sensible extension of the class. Meanwhile when Kill Shot was added back to SV in 9.0 SV Hunters were complaining about it not being a good fit despite it coming with the class (it also hilariously requires a melee weapon equipped as SV).

Well we didn’t sacrifice anything back in MoP when it made sense. You can have depth and enjoyment without making specs actively work against their baseline class. BM and MM do that just fine.

  • Uses an action bar to perform abilities

Tell me… am I describing SV or Fury? Just on the subject of reductionist pedantry…

That’s what it sounds like when you try to generalise every DoT, every proc, and every cooldown as the same.

In any case WoD SV did not have a 2 min CD or auto-attack procs so this one is easy. You’re talking about Venthyr MM. In this case the comparison only bare works because Flayed Shot was more-or-less specifically modelled after SV’s Black Arrow. It’s still not a great comparison because Black Arrow gave regular procs that gave us free Explosive Shots, which was then our primary single-target nuke (whereas Kill Shot is our execute today). We also had a borrowed power that let us multidot with Black Arrow to get more Lock and Load procs. I say borrowed power because we never got to see it live on as a core, distinct spec mechanic as they made SV melee immediately after.

It’s easier to make a compelling kit that feels like an extension of the Hunter class as a ranged spec. Hunters are built around ranged weapons and the game is already lacking in ranged weapon representation even before they took away one of our only options. It’s hard to call melee compelling when there are so many other melee specs in the game (particularly physical melee) and every interesting and unique mechanic melee SV has produced thus far (which is a list pretty much only including Wildfire Bomb and its talents) is ranged anyway.

2 Likes
65

Id rather they add the wfb resets to the end of flanking strike then on CA. That way our dmg isnt so dead outside of cds.

66

Please move Steel trap higher in the tree and can we get wailing arrow too!

1 Like
67

Yes, but no body later spends a point to replace the point they were forced to take. This either needs to be a choice node between raptor strike/mongoose bite, or raptor strike should be baseline and mongoose bite left in the tree like it is.

2 Likes
68

O.o
Put down the drugs and walk away.

1 Like
69

SS should have been surv base talent, raptor should be the generator, and MB should be in the base spells.
Idk why blizz thought it was a good idea that SS be in the generic tree. Bm doesnt use it and MM already has it.
Removing KC would go a long way in not feeling like a melee BM, but…but… ReXxAr. Pathetic.

70

Lets perhaps refrain from accusing someone of taking drugs just because you disagree with them?

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71

I thought it was obvious… lol.

Who takes ST & wailing arrow? Wait, who takes ST at all? Can you even use wailing arrow as surv?

72

So you just assumed he/she was high on drugs and asked the person to leave the conversation? Seems reasonable.

Also as a note, not everyone picks talents solely by how high they sim. Some pick talents for their utility, because they smooth out a rotation or because they like the talent/ability. And there is nothing wrong with that. Despite popular belief you dont have to go with the cookie cutter, min maxed build to perform well. And to finish 99% of the content its often non-relevant what your pick are as long as you are good enough for that content.

73

Yep.
Pvp i can see, everything else i dont.
Traps are never smooth in a rotation.
Never said you did, but its one thing to take the next lvl down, and its another to completely demolish your dps for a talent. ST is the latter.
Also, the argument of completing 99% of the content really only pertains to those within the top 10%. Honestly, if your in a guild that barely clears normal, or it takes you all season to hit +15s, or your best pvp is aroud 1400s, talents matter, and no matter of “git gud” from the fanbois is going to change that.

Also, being mediocre is subpar for many people, and even more dont care what you think is best for them. Just thought id point it out.

1 Like
74

I find the Spearhead and new Coordinated Assault ‘combo’ really awkward… Its basically 2 charges of Coordinated assault with different secondary effects.

In a vacuum, spearhead makes sense, since it buffs MB so u do actually want to stay melee range when you pop it. But then we have the reworked version of CA and now we have 2 long range ‘charges’ on top of harpoon and flanking strike.

Maybe change CA instead? Something like “propels you backwards” since in the case of CA u wanna use killshot/wfb which are both long range attacks, or just leave it as it is in Shadowlands. That way we can maintain the fluid hybrid playstyle of the spec of going in and out of melee range, which is unique to survival.

Im pretty bummed they seem to be going towards the direction of sticking to your target at all times. I love kiting other melees and that’s what differentiates survival hunter from all other specs.

For DF we have harpoon, CA, flanking strike and spearhead - that’s 4 different skills that function like a charge when in reality you wanna be kiting more often than not (against every melee, more than half of all dps specs).

Just felt like putting it out there. Please don’t make sv just another boring melee zug.

2 Likes
75

I’m hoping the new pvp talents help surv in melee. But I’d imagine you’ll still be kiting quite a bit vs melee.

76

This is what I’m talking about. Just make SV all melee outside of traps and WFB so there can be actual melee survivabilty (ironic) built into the spec. Better passive Parry and Dodge? Maybe a HoT of some kind, like Healing Salve or Hunter’s Balm? Some stronger trap-oriented synegy - bring back Snakes or Immolation? Lots of options!

77

Aren’t they rather different? Anti-synergetic, even?

During Spearhead, you want to use as many Mongoose Bites as possible. That essentially means blowing WFB charges and refreshing Serpent Sting before and after it, not during, with MB GCDs being traded only to necessary KC GCDs.

On the other hand, Coordinated Assault is just a very modest buff to Wildfire Bomb and a decent buff to Kill Shot, both GCDs you want to avoid using during Spearhead.

I’m cool with it being an option but agree that it’s sad that there’s virtually no real competing options outside of the slap-dash Ranger BS (which, gameplay-wise, will probably just feel like a downgraded/gutted and reversed Beast Mastery).

In definitely feels like SV should have also had some other means —even if via the Class Tree in a way that’d just synergize far less with playing at Ranged than at melee / as Melee— of dealing with Melee in PvP made available to it.

Imagine, for instance, if each stack of Mongoose Fury increased dodge chance and Armor, or if a lesser form of Deterrence were returned, such as in deflecting the next attack and further melee attacks for a couple seconds thereafter (with nearby enemies having a chance on proximity of ranged attacks being reflected into them instead).

Limited and choiceful windows of decreased opportunity cost for SV letting Melee reach it could actually be more interesting for both sides.

1 Like
78

That would be really interesting.

It would be cool if we could Deterrence an attack and gain focus/steroid for successfully doing so. It wouldnt be complete immunity but it would decrease the incoming damage significantly. High risk, high reward.

79

Just be sure to consider the PvE implications. Both to break and to augment play.

Even complete immunity can be fine if rare and brief enough.

80

Something as simple as a flat dr would be fine imo. Dragonscale armor could be changed, its basically not used. But I don’t think it’ll happen. We’ll play how we play now, except we’ll have 2 cds with charges. Tbh, I’m fine with it.