That’s okay, you don’t have to play SV if you don’t want to. Not every spec needs to be played by every single person.
I don’t think I will ever like Arcane mage, but I don’t tell people about it
You’re being deliberately obtuse again.
They intended for us to be a pure dmg class. They gave us a toolkit consisting of abilities which allowed us to deal the most damage, by far, when using our ranged abilities. The toolkit they gave us, talking offensive abilities, was almost entirely focused on ranged attacks/abilities. The abilities and talents they gave us for anything involving melee was neither usable in most of the game, nor did it come anywhere near the amount of ranged abilities/attacks we had, it amounted to a total of regular melee auto attacks + a modifier to the next melee auto attack, with a 6sec CD.
Again, are you just here to argue about nothing, or do you actually believe that they did not intend for us to be first-and-foremost, a ranged fighter? Based on the actual toolkit we had.
The talent category that was SV back then only contained a single offensive melee ability; Counterattack, which had the primary purpose of acting as a soft-CC, to allow us to get away from an enemy. Any other attacks we had weren’t part of what people refer to as the “SV spec” of the time. Only a select few passive modifiers/interactions.
Again, the only offensive melee ability we got from SV was Counterattack. A conditional root which dealt very little damage, on a 5sec CD.
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You’re ignoring all the baseline abilities
Where did Raptor Strike and Mongoose Bite live?
I mean, that’s what you’re doing lol
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That’s not what I said…
When you’re talking about a specialization, or in the case of vanilla, a talent category, you’re not talking about baseline, class-wide abilities. You’re talking about what you could actually get from said talent categories.
You’ve argued the SV “spec”, any melee abilities that weren’t given to us through the talent category that was SV, they weren’t part of what you would refer to as the SV “spec” of the time. Only the passive talents which somehow modified the baseline abilities were.
You can’t argue that the SV spec of the time gave X,Y, & Z abilities, when it only gave X.
No, learn to read…
Not in the SV talent category.
Very well.
Concussive Shot was a baseline ability under the Marksmanship Skill Category.
Now tell me, in which of the three Talent Categories does the talent Improved Concussive Shot reside?
I’m not following. Please provide a quote or explain further.
“Skill category” and “talent category” isn’t the same thing.
True, and I’ve always specified as such. But do you deny that they are related, have the same name and thematic root, and also that the abilities of the Talent Category which when specced into them reside in the corresponding Skill Category?
You’ve certainly argued in a way which suggests differently. Anyway, your focus within your arguments have been on the so-called SV specialization(talent category) of the time. Anything that wasn’t provided by said category isn’t part of the so-called SV spec, again, of the time.
This is why I’ve argued how the purpose of the SV category/spec was simply to add to our baseline toolkit, which was primarily ranged, by design.
You’re not worried it’s a zero-sum game?Most people only played one thing at a time. Legion was the last time I “dual mained” Afflock and Marks.
No? I’m not sure what you’re saying. On Hunter, I only play SV and BM. I feel like many people don’t play all 3 specs on their preferred class
Learn to articulate yourself, you keep going back and forth on what classifies a spec in vanilla, if specs existed in vanilla, the “intended gameplay” being the “blizard classification of the spec”, but before you said “well optimal rotation doesn’t mean anything”
Oh? Did you learn them under the Marksmanship or Beast Mastery part of your class trainer? I recall it being under the Survival category, so if I’m wrong feel free to educate me
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In the original post that you quoted, I mention that both talents and the baseline skills are different. The baseline skills were indeed available without talent investment. However, these skills were still organized into Archetypal Skill Categories that correspond to the Talent Specialization of the same name.
And so, I must ask you, in which Skill Category did all rDPS abilities take residence? In which Talent Category did these rDPS base skills receive exclusive benefit from?
If they have the same name, then I don’t see any practical benefit from this line of discussion.
When you play a class/spec, that class/spec wins. All the others lost the contest for your time. SV hasn’t been the biggest winner like that. It’s gotten a reputation for being a meme spec for a reason. That does affect its viability in endgame content.
For perspective, I have played my hunter since Molten Core but I’m a complete casual now and have been for many years and often take long breaks from the game. Maybe that makes me worthy of an opinion, maybe not. Either way, I’ll provide one.
I remember when SV was first introduced as a melee spec in Legion and having open forum-discourse with Bepples about how much I enjoyed seeing it introduced. Beeples on the other hand, had nothing but complete distaste for the new spec being introduced and especially that it took away the ranged spec he greatly enjoyed playing. Neither can be argued, because they are based on emotion. I enjoy the new (and also enjoyed the old version), he enjoyed the old, and not the new.
That said, I have a lot of respect for Bepples’ passion and consistency towards this topic as he has never wavered and argues his point well. He’s usually right about the measurable points, e.g. how many are brought to raids, or pvp matches. The one thing that you can’t measure, is “Fun” for casual folks, of which I am one, even if I am one of the few.
I brought up the tank idea a few years ago, of which Bepples engaged in the discourse then too. I think it’s fun to talk about, but it’ll likely never happen. I think that Blizzard has likely learned their lesson to not disrupt a spec in the manner they did. They may add specs, they may balance specs, and they may even overhaul and add flavor to specs, but they’ll likely never again change the role of a spec the way they did – there was just too much outrage – it was an experiment that didn’t go as well as they had hoped, but the damage was done. Bring back the old SV spec as a 4th spec, I’m fine with that. Add a 4th/5th spec as SV tank even if you’d like… I certainly would find it interesting and it’s fun to talk about… It’s all good with me, just make it balanced and don’t change current spec’s roles again to do it.
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I have never changed my definition of what classifies a spec(talent category) in vanilla. The only thing I’ve said is that the so-called specializations(again, TALENT CATEGORIES) of the class were intentionally designed to build on the baseline class-wide toolkit, not remove or replace it. The baseline toolkit/abilities, however, were NOT a part of either so-called specialization(again, TALENT CATEGORY).
Is that clear enough?
Not sure what you’re referring to here. “Intended gameplay” any mentions of it on my part have been about the baseline class toolkit, and how each respective talent category built onto said baseline toolkit.
Why you’re specifically choosing to connect “intended gameplay” with “blizzard classification of the spec”, I couldn’t say. Again, the “intended gameplay” was the sum total of said baseline class-wide toolkit, combined with what could be chosen within a certain talent category(specialization as you say).
Why are you talking about our class trainer? Again, neither Raptor Strike, nor Mongoose Bite could be obtained from the Survival talent category(specialization).
I can only assume that you’re trolling at this point…
Hopefully they have.
If they do this, we’re all good really. No need for any arguments about RSV v MSV at that point.
It was only fun for me in 9.2.5. The spec had never been fun at any other time. And that got taken away from me, as it were, when all that was needed was a damage tuning. When I saw 10.0 hit, it curbed my enthusiasm, though I still held out hope. 10.1 brought that sexy back.
It’s no wonder that Blizz gets the “small indie company” insults because they [used to] had a very protective reputation for the quality of their games. SV would have never come out like it did in the first place. The quality edge had dulled, perhaps during Warlords(as I remember the abyssal launch). Mists was probably the last best expansion in that regard. So in a way, you can argue that MSV is a symptom of a crappier MMO experience overall. But then Classic WoW happened for the first time and that’s what saved Retail’s bacon.
But boy howdy, if there’s something MSoft can do, a lot of this could very well go away. It’s a Frenchy revolution I’d open the gates for. And MSV could go to the guillotine maybe?
They were, yes. Still, that doesn’t make them a part of, as an example, the SV talent category(spec). They changed this later one, partly once they actually introduced Core specializations into the game in Cataclysm, but primarily so from Legion and onwards, once talents generally were no longer shared between specs(apart from utility).
That’s your opinion, which you’re free to have. But it doesn’t support any argument you’ve brought up in the past regarding the intent of the design of the class as a whole, and what playstyle was promoted through the SV talent category.
I agree. Vanilla’s SV spec was a ranged spec. Yes, it was where some melee skills / skill-points were located. They definitely added flavor and some needed capabilities back when the dead-zone existed (4-yards where neither melee nor ranged worked and you needed something to create distance), but it was still a ranged spec.
I vaguely remember trying to build a melee hunter. It didn’t go well and your pet would certainly out-DPS you in trying to do it… They were definitely just there to create a gap between you and whatever you were fighting or if you were in tight spaces, which many dungeons had back then… LBRS, UBRS, Scarlet Monestary come to mind.
I’ve not played any of the Classic stuff, so I can’t remember the spec trees’ details, but seem to remember that.
Edit: Sorry, my recollection was worse than I thought. After looking at the trees on wowhead, I now remember that the SV tree was used to supplement either MM or BM. The rest of what I said above is accurate though. I also remember that SV was not viable in Vanilla Raids.
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Can you locate any ranged abilities in either the Skill Category, or the Talent Category of Survival in Vanilla? If not, then you have failed to substantiate a ranged locus for either of the two categories within the Hunter Class titled Survival.