the fact that its good in pvp is the reason i got into it. enhance was suffering and there isnt a good melee mail wearer in pvp atm. i know it seems niche and people can “just play another melee” but for asthetic reasons i like mail gear for my troll and its a fun spec to play in pvp.
mythics shouldnt be the be all end all when it comes to why a class deserves to be ignored or reverted. its ok that some classes are more pvp oriented then others.
pvp is a big part of this game survival should get some attention thats all i want
The spec is nigh unusable in 2/3rds of the games content, but that’s ok because you like the way your troll looks in mail gear and you can play it in bgs? Seriously?
I never claimed that m+ was the “be all end all” of class acknowledgement. What I said is that the class isn’t played by anyone and there is a reason for that. And the reason is simple. It sucks. It’s a terrible rendition of the class fantasy/spec, and the stats prove that to be true. Even in uldir when survival simmed higher and did better, no one touched it because it’s terrible. Seriously 12 years RSV stayed uncontroversial for the most part, but all 4 years survival has been melee it’s been untouched and unplayed by the vast majority. That should mean something to you guys.
Also not gonna touch the balance aspect of having 4 specs I see. Tragic. Like I love the thought of everyone walking away feeling happy, seriously, I do. But with blizzard you are grasping for air, while falling off a cliff.
No, there’s definitely no requirement to say you like something! That’s a far cry to what I’m saying.
I wasn’t specifically talking about survival but just in general that I prefer to see the context and viewpoint from the person posting or responding to me.
Context is important to me, and you can’t really tell me it’s not important to me
I pointed out my opinion that I believe it needs updates. current dps numbers are not the real issue of Survival as you can see if you look at logs that showcases that Survival is middle of the pack in raid dps.
I do agree something must be done with Survival, I just do not agree the solution is that it should be reverted.
Low population, yes, But we are still here debating your point so we do exist.
I do not agree, but I respect you do not like it.
I agree. I did say I was maining SV before it changed to Melee, I do not agree with how Blizzard went about remaking our spec but the fact is that it sadly happened. I also do not disagree that is unpopular.
But I like it as much as you dislike it, so I think is fair that both of our sides are heard.
I agree with the many issues you said about why blizz wouldn’t make a fourth spec. I still believe the best solution to both of our sides would be to make a fourth spec.
I never said it is the most “possible” just that is the best, a girl can dream, right? right now there is as much chance of blizz making said fourth spec as there is for blizz to revert Survival back to ranged since they already even pointed out their desire to keep it melee when they were explaining the class changes in the very first build of alpha.
Even then, that Blizz said that changes nothing about you having the right to say you still want Survival reverted. Your opinions deserve to be heard as much as mines. Even if we disagree.
My apologies then for coming so strongly. Since we were talking about Survival when you made your comment I assumed it was specifically directed to the conversation.
No, I cannot. We disagree on things, yes but we are both free to think what we wish to.
My only point was that we should be able to discuss each other’s points without the need to attack each other as a person and treat others like we wish to be treated, with respect.
Therein lies the problem though. Numbers wise it’s a decent spec, you can play it competitively. Despite that hardly anyone plays the spec, which spells out in no uncertain terms that the spec has failed. It’s not failing because of number tweaking, it’s failing because it doesn’t appeal to the core audience it was supposed to.
Which realistically means that if blizzard does anything(instead of letting the spec rot for another expac) it will be one of 2 things, a massive melee rework, that might fail yet again in garnering a sizeable audience, or a revert to a version of the spec that was well liked and received by the community it appealed to. Which of those options truly sounds like a realistic option?
At the end of the day I prefer to see myself as a realist, not an optimist. Especially when dealing with companies like Activision/blizzard, which is why I say 100% of the time blizzard will go with a revert instead of a rework if they do anything at all.
To put it simply, Hunter is and always was a ranged class, you can’t be mad at people for picking/playing a ranged class and not actively wanting to play a forced melee spec.
This does not invalidate the people that DO enjoy MSV though, I play it in PvP and enjoy it.
I honestly do not believe the spec requires a complete rework but it does need updates. The spec suffers mostly of being quite clunky, to begin with and only becoming smooth after getting some stats + specific talents + azerites. Below I will type some of the ideas I have posted in some other threads of what I beleive would help the spec become much smoother and enjoyable to play.
things like:
Mongoose Bite and Alpha Predator’s two kill command stacks (leaving the 30% damage increase as the actual talent) should become baseline.
Mongoose Bite has been the only talent used on the row and was our main ability in Legion. It should be made baseline to add complexity to our baseline rotation and free up the talent row.
Alpha Predator’s two stacks of Kill Command should be made baseline as a quality of life change. As without it we suffer from having a large number of our Kill Command Reset procs getting wasted because it procs more often than we can use it.
Serpent sting should scale with the same formula as other dots do.
Current Serpent Sting formula makes it so Haste makes the dot shorter while not adding more ticks to it. This makes us require to spend more focus on it, lowering our DPS instead of increasing it.
Charkrams should be either moved to another row, made baseline or replaced with a more beefy talent to compete in the row.
The other two talents in the same row change our rotation and bring new gameplay to the spec while Chakrams instead is only one button that we press every 20 seconds that does nothing to change the rotation. It also cost focus which we already do not have enough to spare in our baseline rotation.
The lvl 60 row needs to get a look at as it has been dead in pve forever.
Bloodseeker has dominated the row throughout the whole of BFA. While the other two talents has been dead, I do not believe Bloodseeker should be nerfed but instead I am of the opinion that the other two should be replaced for new talents. But this is nevertheless only my opinion.
Carve should have its cd removed and it’s damage lowered to give us a spamable aoe ability (with butchery remaining as is)
Currently Survival suffer in aoe without the addition of specific Azerites. as we do not really have an AOE rotation to speak off, By making Carve have no cd we would then have an actual AOE rotation separated from our Single Target one.
Survival should be given the ability to choose between Two-hander or dual wield, just like Frost DKs.
Lorewise the two most famous Survival Hunters, Rexxar and Nathanos both dual wield. We do also have some examples of Survival NPCs that use a Two-hander so it should be fair to give Survival the option to pick between both styles just like Frost DK can.
And lastly this is only a personal wish rather than something that requires any real fixing: kill command should be replaced with the original legion flanking strike both to separate survival from BM and to give more melee specific abilities to surv since currently only our autos and MB actually requires us to stay in melee range.
Still, I believe Survival will always remain a niche spec because of outside circumstances that have nothing to do with how the spec play. the sad reality is that is a melee spec in an environment that already has a lot of them which makes the spot quite competitive. to make matters worse for us we are also competing for a “hunter” spot as to why would a serious raid lead consider a survival hunter over a bm hunter when bm brings more to the table by the sole fact of being ranged?
Ranged specs have always been more popular in the classes they are compared to their melee counterparts even if numbers favor the melee one, Feral and Enhancement have also suffer from this. Survival has it worse because it shares its class with two whole ranged specs.
I do not see this as a reason for it to be reverted, just a reality of the situation just like Feral and Enhancement have to deal with too.
I am not trying to dismiss your point but honestly, seeing how stubborn blizzard is about being correct with other matters like covenants I believe that the most realistic route Blizzard would take is to either do just some needed updates ( the path I hope for) or do another melee rework just for the sake of not admitting they are wrong.
I am not mad, quite the contrary. I completely agree that Blizzard went the wrong way by forcing an already established spec like Survival to be reshaped into something entirely new that has little to no similarities with the original.
But I believe simply reverting it back is not the solution anymore since now the “new” spec has had time to garner people that love it and enjoy it, and I feel reverting it would be akin to trying to solve the situation by repeating history.
I understand the frustrations but in no way is jumping down each other’s throats constructive feedback. We can all agree on the two most important fronts;
There is a desire for a ranged survival spec and many of its old mechanics/abilities
and;
Melee survival needs improvement both mechanically and thematically
Whether Blizzard implements this feedback as a fourth spec or a rework of the same is irrelevant. We need to be united and concise with what we want and don’t want from both a ranged and melee survival. Truthfully, I’d prefer both. Being melee as a hunter is fun sometimes. Do I play it as often as I did old survival? Absolutely not. But that doesn’t mean it’s an invalid way to play.
We need to help Blizzard find the river before we start arguing among ourselves on how to cross it.
We are missing many things for us to be accurate about our dps, there is still sometime too to hopefully get some updates. I would not panic much about the low damage yet, But I would still welcome people to keep shouting to blizzard see if we can get them to update us… it worked for Shadow priests so we may as well riot too a little LOL.
Which is quite okay, we also do not get that much out of corruptions like BM does, we would be probably quite close right now without Corruptions making everything so nuts.
I was responding to him trying to “gotcha” me. I agree numbers aren’t very accurate rn, but it still remains that what I said in both posts is accurate. Regardless of what he wishes, it’s a fact. A tuning pass isn’t going to save the spec. It needs a rework or revert plain and simple
I’d rather they focus their attention on making a ranged hunter spec actually viable for pvp. Having to go melee on a class we rolled to play ranged is dumb as hell.
Actually the SL dps rankings on WoWMeta you were looking at before were from before the fix to SV focus regen. The rankings were just updated yesterday and SV is back to being around the middle of the pack now.
I really don’t understand all the hate that melee SV gets, the spec adds a nice amount of variety to the class imo and the fantasy of using a spear + pet to hunt things totally makes sense. I personally find SV to be a fun and fully functional spec, and saying that “nobody” plays it and anyone who thinks otherwise is ignorant… is pretty ignorant to say in itself. Go watch the arena world championships today and you’ll see quite a few SV hunters. To me the main issue with the spec is mostly that it has “one” talent build, and feels a bit lacking without the 2 charges of kill command/wildfire bomb (there are a number of specs with this issue of dead talent trees though).
I think a lot of the resentment toward the spec comes from the fact that Blizzard removed things from SV which could/should just be added into the other ranged specs. Hunters in general should have access to more trap-based things in general (like snake trap, entrapment etc), and other things like Wyvern sting, Black arrow, multi-shot applying Serpent sting (etc) could also work fine with BM/MM. To me it makes sense that Blizz must have thought that having a 3rd ranged spec redundant, the problem is that they didn’t re-implement the few cool things that the old SV specs did have.
Maybe if people would stop bashing the spec and asking for total reworks (which also definitely aren’t going to happen) they can try and be constructive, and give more realistic & concrete suggestions about what they’d like to see to improve the hunter specs.
Hunters historically always were a ranged class. Even in vanilla. Yes they had melee abilities, but they were a ranged class. Most people played them for 1 of 3 reasons.
They wanted to play a ranged class that wasn’t a spell caster.
They wanted to play a class with a pet.
Both.
The vast majority of hunters did not and do not want to play melee on what even blizzard admits is a ranged class.
It gets the hate it gets because they deleted a ranged spec that many, many people enjoyed. So understandably a lot of people do not like that it exists.
Survival is currently one of the least played specs in the entire game.
Yes, but this is mainly because MM and BM are terrible in pvp and survival is at least decent in it.
So you do understand at least partially why people don’t like it… why play dumb then?
Stop trying to water down my spec with RSV. MM players don’t want to be RSV. They are not the same and don’t have the same feel to them despite what Ion seems to believe.
You know there are currently something like 13 or 14 melee dps specs in the game right now? And there are currently 2… count them 2 physical ranged dps specs.
Let me ask you this if blizzard can make 13 “unique” melee specs, why can’t they make 3 unique ranged specs?
Why do you expect people who don’t like melee to care about making melee better?
I don’t know why we always go back and forth with the same garbage. Look how many posts in the hunter forums different title, but same exact convo in all of them.
Ranged vs melee. We all get it. If we can’t have ranged survival then I want the best melee version of it I can get. Doesn’t mean I don’t like ranged survival.
Why insist on continuing the same arguments over and over, keeping with the same divide amongst players as there is now when there’s a solution which would solve all that.
We all have our opinions. If you like MSV and think that it fits the class, that’s what you think. Simple as that.
Personally, as someone who detests what they did when they removed RSV in favor of a melee spec, that doesn’t take away how I do agree that there is merit for a melee hunter spec.
I think that reworking SV in order to implement it was by far the worst thing they could’ve done(equal to reworking either BM/MM for the same outcome ofc).
You say that MSV added variety to the class. That might be true, depending on who you ask. But for anyone who played the class because of it’s focus on the use of ranged weapons, the removal of RSV caused a loss of variety for us.
This becomes even more obvious when you look at the redesigns of the other two hunter specs(BM/MM) and how focused they are in their respective themes. In short, people want more options, not fewer. That goes for those who prefers the ranged options as well.
Again, you think as you do.
But anyone who liked what RSV was about would disagree with you here.
Some of us did want to be able to go back to the ol’ ways of being both capable of being ranged and also melee. A few hunters have always wanted to be “rangers” like Sylvannas.
I wasn’t happy originally with the change when it happen in legion but I quickly fell in love with MSV and have loved it since then.
I already stated before that I am pro-MSV but I do agree that Blizzard went entirely the wrong way about implementing MSV, MSV should have either come as a fourth spec or as a “off-spec” like Gladiator was for Prot warriors in WoD.
Sadly this is a mistake that already happened, I understand why it makes SV so disliked by the non-MSV community but I think we gain nothing by still raging at an event that we have no control in changing.
I do think we should not forget it, less Blizz tries to repeat it.
True, but there are people that play it, The reality of the situation is that Survival will never really be a popular pick compared to MM or BM, this also happens with Enhancement and Feral even when they are doing more DPS than their ranged counterparts.
Is a reality of a melee spec in a class with a ranged option. I still think that “so few play it” is still not a reason to say the spec is a failure.
Survival is more than decent, is actually a pretty good spec when it comes to PVP because of how its kit works. But it is also quite true that the low representation of MM and BM comes more out of them being so heavily nerfed in PVP rather than SV being massively popular.
I agree, another terrible mistake of Blizz have been the handling of RSV abilities, trying to get them fit into MM has caused more problems than fixed anything. on the other hand, I believe the current MSV would make great use of many of the old RSV abilities like Black arrow and Explosive shot. With us being more of a medium-ranged skirmisher more than an actual melee, more dots based shots would potentially fit into our playstyle.
The only thing I can say about this is that I am just as confused about this as you are. I do love my MSV but I can’t fathom the logic Blizz uses. If it had been on my hands I would have simply made current MSV into the third Demon Hunter spec with its abilities recolored to fit all the “fel” style of Demon Hunters and kept RSV.
But the sad truth is that this already happened. We waste our time crying over the past.
I believe in solidarity. I have never really played MM outside of hitting a target dummy, I do not like it uniquely for the issue of not using a Pet, I do not want to play a spec without my trusty companion. Yet I want MM to be the best it can, I want people that play it to have fun and enjoy it.
I also pray and hope that Blizz one day give us back RSV as a fourth spec so the people that enjoyed RSV can have it back and be happy.
I speak for nobody but my own when I say that I wish others would wish the same for me, Our current MSV is not unviable or terrible but it is in desperate need of updates.
At the end I think Hyukin expresses my desire on the matter better than I could.
I do not hate RSV people. I hope we can manage to convince blizz to bring RSV as a fourth spec one day. The only thing I want are some updates for my MSV
Seriously? One of the bottom 2 represented specs in the game, despite being a middle of the pack dps and it doesn’t need saving? The lowest is sub rogue and that is purely because blizzard absolutely gutted them numbers wise.
