Subtle No Dance

Interested to know who else will be playing a No Dance sub spec. I am really eager to try it out and see how far below benchmark my damage sits. But there’s something about Gouge → Backstab routine that I simply miss and want to feel again.


I am also interested in seeing if no-dance subtlety is viable. I also missed that all rogues are getting gouge back – awesome!

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I will definitely try it out. I would be playing Hemo centered build until today, if not for Legion changes.


I already play with one. So I wont be taking the one in class route

LOL Blizzard, well played.

Shadow Dance is now baseline. Guess I’m not playing sub for a third expansion running.

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Well, it is what it is.

What’s so bad about Shadow Dance?

I mean its pretty simple. If you really hate shadow dance that much then dont play sub. It was dumb in the first place to let sub not have shadow dance but gave nothing for sustained damage to balance out. What, you going to backstab twice and wait for energy regain to backstab again?

There was pretty much no way a dance-less Sub build was gonna be viable, I mean…

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Dance made Sub fun - also Sub pre dance was legit w key like a combat rogue with SHS



A lot of people who just want muh numbers seem to miss the value in playing a low-intensity build, forgetting it’s a roleplaying game and not an outright action-based combat simulator.


you are very wise :kissing_closed_eyes:

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The only way backstab can work without needing shadow dance unfortunately is if they tune the energy usage. I personally would like to get more than 2 hits out of backstab/gloomblade but who know if that’s going to happen. If it was brought down to like 10 energy or something, we could def go without shadow dance as a requirement. onecandream


Backstab is 35 energy.
Vigor is obtainable by sub.
A crit heavy seal fate build doubles CP gen and guarantees FW uptime.
Energy Regen via Imp Shadow Tech and SnD is sufficient to reliably use Backstab to fill CP use.

This build would be remarkable viable, without needing to muddy the rotation/priority waters with shadow dance and Shadowstrikes. It would not be BiS, with rotational complexity and cooldown management rewarding a higher performance ceiling overall. But it would be a straightforward introduction to the spec, and would be very welcoming from uncomfortably forcing openers mid-rotation via calling Shadow Dance “necessary”.

Moreso, it would be a build that rewards good traditional “thief” positioning (behind the target for more BS throughput).

And finally, Backstab => Gloomblade suddenly activates synergy with the entire right-side track of the subtlety tree.


Do you think in a pvp perspective, this would work without going down the middle tree for Subtly? Without going down the middle, we miss out on a few really good options (gouge/sprint CDR/cheat death(or elusiveness))

you are free to play however you like. No one can tell you otherwise. But you shouldnt make claims about build viability because viability and playability are two different things.

What youre trying to do can be played in all areas of the game. However you will be doing significantly less damage by foregoing shadowdance and shadowstrike completely. Even many important backstab talents on the tree relies on activating shadowdance and shadowstrike. Unfortunately for you skipping shadowdance is not the same as skipping just a major cd like adren or vendetta, because shadowdance is now purposed to have consistent uptime on the class. Also the fact shadowstrike is just straight up a more efficient builder than backstab, not to mention shadowdance is what gives sub great control in pvp arena.

your build is playable . might even be fun to you. But it is 100% not viable in pvp or pve

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Thank you for explaining everything wrong with focusing on Shadow Dance in PvE.

And it is completely viable. Not optimal. They outright said many builds, even bad ones, would be possible. Many of those non-BiS builds will be plenty viable.

(It is not viable for PvP.)

heres the thing. If i macro shadow dance to all your buttons to make you press it on cd. Put backstab and shadowstike(strealth bar) on same keybind and told you to execute your rotations like your normally would, i guarantee your output will be higher overall despite 0 differences in gameplay.

Thats the issue with viability, because not using Shadowdance in its current iteration is just playing with a needless handicap. You can probably CHOOSE to not press shadowstrike during dance and backstab instead and it will still be overall increase.

Im sure there are build ideas right now around backstab/gloomblade but those still need to use shadowdance to actively buff your abilities.

We rely on dance, it’s been a big part of our kit since wrath. The FW nerfs today are lame along with all the other stuff and backstab does pretty trash damage once again even with lingering shadow + perforated veins.

Double dance stuff is fixed so people can do that again if they wish (good for them if they like that - not joking).

Gloomblade is the closest we will ever get to backstab doing any significant damage and that’s just it. They definitely don’t like us doing anything meaningful outside of dance and that was prob put in their heads by feedback and talking with the cats who lead over that discussion.

There are different builds to make 1 dance nice but you do have to watch a good bit of buffs and other things and that is how i’m going to build. Spamming dance devalues the cool down as many of us has discussed many times where others are cool with it because they like it.

I’d just like to see any other class / spec put that shoe on and do anything meaningful in a 8 second window. “iTs So mUcH dAmAgE” . come off it man, plenty of other classes have 30% or more damage bonus modifiers attached to all sorts of crap passively by flicking noodles at you from a dollar store cup.

All I give a frick about is 1 dance and some solid hits outside of it as you’re waiting for dance to come back up. Currently on ptr, you have a small amount of downtime if you’re staying on top of it and laying into jokers.

The bring this rant to a close

  • You can still have the 2 dance some people enjoy from legion forward
  • You can make builds that do some wicked things with 1 dance, but you have to match a bunch of talents together.

We will have to see what happens to other classes and how things pair up. I would hope that actual rogues who do ethical testing instead of abusing whatever they can are reporting / offering solid feedback instead of leaning into certain groups agendas.

I would also hope the developers are actually reading posts instead of listening to X Y Z. These trees provide more than 1 way to build, and it needs to remain open to that… not closing us off. They have been sneakily tuning us Subtlety rogues the entire time and anyone who has been testing on PTR / Beta can see that.


The latest update on the No Dance build. If you don’t take the right side of the General Rogue Class Tree, your Shadowstrike does not apply Find Weakness. You need to make sure that a Backstab crits before you dance to ensure a full FW uptime during the “baseline” (totally unnecessary) dance.

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