Even with all of my weapon mastery procs active and find weakness up on the target, I cannot Crit anything high. Whereas classes like ret paladins can hit back to back to back 80ks.
This is the major major problem with having 2 charges of dance. Blizzard is terrified of rogues doing damage because of how great sub’s control already is.
I’ve said it once and I’ll say it a billion more times. Make shadow dance have one charge and remove the mastery nerf in PvP settings. Why shouldn’t I be able to hit a 150k eviscerate if I’ve set it up properly?
Sub is terrible right now as a dps option because of the fact that two dances would be broken overpowered if we actually did any damage and this makes the spec awful to play and feels like I’m tickling people because of how much the mastery gets nerfed in PvP .
You said it well. Going back to one charge of Dance would lower our burst duration, allowing Blizzard to increase our damage both in and out of Dance. It would also mean we are Cheap Shotting less, allowing Blizz to bring back integral utility like Gouge. BfA Sub is irredeemable garbage, but it looks like Blizz may be aware of this, fortunately.
Alas ,I believe this of all three rogue specs. Outlaw especially got trashed with Legion, though at least it got some of its Combat fun back with tier sets and artifact traits.
I have said a couple of the same things you have in a post in Arena Forums.
I think that them redesigning sub in Shadowlands is great, moving away from the Shadow-Theme is fantastic news IMO, we can maybe be really fun again like Pre-Legion
HOWEVER, I think that these changes specifically should happen as well:
CC:
Remove Shadowy Duel
Bring back Gouge on high energy cost
Damage:
Bring back 1 Dance charge
Buff Backstab by a little
By them removing shadowy duel, bringing back high energy cost gouge, & making dance 1 charge again it makes it to where we arent really “gaining” or “losing” CC, but its a more fun & rewarding addition to our kit by doing these things.
Making Dance 1 charge, 1min CD, 10sec duration makes it to where we are monsters with damage & CC if we set up our dance well, like how it used to be. It also makes it to where a bad rogue will waste their dance and be less capable of doing cool things by messing up dance.
Buffing Backstab makes it to where we can do atleast a little sustain damage in pvp since Dance would now be a 1minute thing, rather than having it every stun DR.
I think they should even make Backstab only usable from the sides and from behind, like it’s always been before legion. Another cool thing too would be if you stabbed someone from behind it did a little bit extra dmg, apposed from hitting them from the side. That would balance the spell.
The problem is, it’s not “like it used to be.” All the other classes would be in BFA or Shadowlands you’d have Sub Rogues still playing MOP.
One Dance on a 1 minute CD sounds more like someone who doesn’t like Sub Rogues or wants to dumb them down. There are no more Stun Lock-Burst Down and walk away smiling. Not only is it difficult with all the class changes, traits, essence, and corruption. Blizzard doesn’t want it and the community as a whole doesn’t want it, this is not 2012.
What’s interesting in your proposal is you didn’t say, "Make Dance 1 charge, 1 min CD, 10 Sec duration with huge burst. Sounds like someone trying to Nerf Sub Rogues more than they are now.
Again, sounds more like someone trying to Nerf Sub Rogues or someone who doesn’t understand the current spec.
You never mention a word about Nightblade or Eviscerate or what would replace it. But you talk about Gouge. This is another sneaky nerf Rogues post or a post from a Rogue who hasn’t played Subtlety in years.
What you’re really looking for (mabye and doing a poor job) is making Subtlety the meta for Arena again. The problem like it always is, some will want to make it the meta for PVE, and some the Meta for BG and WPVP. And we’ll end up with a pile of crap.
I agree with the overall sentiment that subtlety should move back to one charge. Blizz has seemed afraid all expansion to nudge the spec into relevance because of how explosive it can be. Legion sub was kept under wraps because of how integral DfA was to your rotation that kept you from spamming.
I understand why they did it, to make the spec less punishing for screwing up your timing, but it’s proven too hard to balance.
Bring back the fundamentals. Subtlety is a spec built around planning, preparation, explosive windows and energy pooling.
My only request is for them not to focus too much on the PvP aspect to the detriment to pve viability. Wow PvP is fun but it’s always been a minigame in the wider scope of the game.
Someone obviously didn’t play Wod, because you would know that sub was actually an S tier pvp and pve spec throughout the xpac lol.
Did you play prelegion? We had a CC window with amazing burst. Also you talk about dumbing sub down when we are literally playing the most dumbed down version of the spec.
But why was sub top tier in all content with one dance in wod?
Your stupid, obviously nightblade would either remain the same or become rupture. Evis, would just be evis.
You talk about him not playing sub in years, I want to know where you have been. Making all these stupid accusations. Stop being a clown
Your obviously the one who has 0 concept of the spec. Talking about these changes nerfing sub, even though sub is the worst it’s been in pve XD. After 3 patches it finally became viable in pvp, but is still overshadowed by Assa.
Here is proof of sub being god tier in wod. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/8#class=Rogue
I’m posting on my Sub Rogue and play a Rogue almost every day, been playing Rogue since MOP, almost exclusively. You and your “friend” are posting on a classic character and a Sub Rogue with 230 HK.
I understand players miss the Glory Days of Subtlety. It was the perfect spec and it played great and was fun. But it’s gone and isn’t coming back.
Your friend, with his Sub Rogue said this:
That’s code for, “I walked into WPVP with War Mode on and got beat up by a Sub Rogue. I’m a really good player and shouldn’t have been destroyed by a Sub, they suck.”
You were doing okay in your response, too many insults, but okay. Until you said this:
The truth came out. It’s not about the Glory Days of Subtlety it’s about destroying players, that’s it. Trust me I understand.
Subtlety mechanics haven’t changed at all in BFA. I looked this morning, still 2 Dances, and no Gouge. The only thing changed is Sub is doing more damage that works with the synergy of control and burst, and 2 dances.
Players were having no problems playing Subtlety in the end of Legion and the beginning of BFA. It wasn’t until the nerfs that everyone went to Assassination and Sub wasn’t viable in any kind of PVP.
We’ve had this conversation before in this forum. I went back and looked at the old forums from the beginning of BFA. I couldn’t find one complaint by Rogues. (I posted that on this forum.) Plenty of other classes and specs were complaining but no Sub Rogues. Because we were destroying players before the nerf.
You can give all the arguments and childish insults but it’s not about dances. It has nothing to do with dances except for a few diehards, which I respect. It’s all about being harder to get the same results with Sub that you can get easily with Assassination.
I don’t trust Blizzard to do anything with Subtlety without completely screwing it up. Then we’ll wait years before it’s fixed.
I play sub rogue everyday and have since Wod, current version of sub is dumbed down and unfun to play, it is still less braindead than most of the specs in the
Game but blizzard took one of the most best designed specs in the game and absolutely trashed it for a shadowy themed rogue in legion, if they are smart they just move dance back to 1 charge, give us gouge, rupture and a lot of the other cool abilities that we had in mop and wod
I dont get it, you say you dont do enough dmg… ok thats fine.
But you want to change the whole mechanics? What? Mechanic sub works good, just need number tweaks… not mechanics. Since its the dmg you lack, not how it works.
If sub receives buffs it’s too OP, look at legion. 2 dances with CDR = to much control, with buffed dmg the spec would be more busted than Assassination. Which needs a nerf tbh.
Me being on a classic toon has nothing to do with the thread lol.
I mean maybe lol, but the way im took that is. That he wants to see a difference between good and bad rogues. A bad rogue with one dance would not produce the same results as a better rogue who can set up damage and goes better.
If you are fishing for big numbers on rogue this is not the class for you.
Wow rogues not complaining about their own class being busted? Seems pretty abnormal to me. Perhaps it got nerfed because of broken 3x azerite stacking, and doing top dps in arena for doing absolutely nothing.
Wrong, it’s the fact that assassination performs all around better with no real gear requirement. Some people can’t even play sub due to 3x nights vengence and the vers/mast requirements due to the rng show of a gearing system.
Blizz will never allow Sub to do more damage as long as multiple dance charges allow cheap shot spam.
Same reason why they increased the cool down on between the eyes for outlaw as it was before reducing the cool down enough that with True Bearing buff you could do a triple BTE stun lock chain.
Blizz will keep Outlaw and Sub damage low in PVP if they can spam stuns like crazy.
This is the only thing you’ve said that is true. However, other specs are being redesigned in SLand, and shouldn’t we as players strive to get the most fun experience out of our class and its design? That’s what im doing here, I simply want each class to have all its iconic buttons back for the most fun playing experience. Do I want to re-experience a fun time like WOTLK? MOP? Of course.
I literally said this exact thing, its implied in my message:
“Making Dance 1charge, 1min CD, 10sec duration makes it to where we are MONSTERS WITH DAMAGE & CC if we set up our dance well”
And how exactly do you know? Judging by your experience it does not seem you are very in tune with what the community wants, much less the PvP community.
Look at every great rogue from MOP to now that still plays, everyone is baffled at how trash every class design is in BFA, especially for PVP. There is no debating, its a known fact by majority of PvPers. Take Nahj for example, Multiple - R1 rogue who happens to play Sub the most consistently of most top rogues, he laughs at the utter garbage design that is BFA Sub Rogue.
1 Dance, 1m CD, 10s Duration does not “dumb down” rogue, it makes it more skillful & interactive.
Currently, if you mess up a dance by not setting up your “go” efficiently, it’s no big deal and is soon forgotten because you have multiple dance charges to make up for it, with the 1 dance proposal, this now makes you have to set up your burst more effectively to be rewarded. (IK SO SCARY RIGHT!!)
If you ARE able to set up your dance correctly, then you had SO much potential, both in outplay & in damage to win the game. This is the type of design that blizzard used to follow, unfortunately they mostly do not anymore. Good players should be rewarded for good play, rather than bad player’s BAD play going unpunished.
Seems like YOU don’t understand the spec. Why would I mention Nightblade in particular? I said in my original post here that them deciding to redesign Sub AWAY from Shadow-Theme is fine, that implies that Nightblade would likely become Rupture, or if anything stay as is. So I don’t understand your confusion here. And why would Eviscerate go away? Eviscerate has been an ability since Day 1 of Rogue, it’s not apart of Rogue’s “Shadow-Theme”.
I completely agree. And 1-Dance fits exactly into that. Planning, Preparation, and Execution. Good player’s will be successful with this and do great things, whereas bad players will have to learn and get better through playing and experiencing.
Yeah. I don’t get what hes trying to say. It appears to me that he is under the impression that BFA sub is the most complex iteration, when that’s actually so far from the truth that it hurts.
By reading this, and also looking at your armory, you obviously are one of the last people who should be making inputs about where sub is & should be.
Firstly, you are using “HKs” as a means to help you win an argument which absolutely made me laugh. Guess you skipped over the multiple Gladiator’s & 2700’s that I have though.
BTW this is a rogue that I boosted with SLand pre-order and is not my first, or even second rogue.
No, that quote I made is code for I love the class, and more specifically the spec, and I myself, as well as like 90% of the PvP & arena community specifically, are tired of the absolute disgusting design’s that blizzard has put in place this expansion. This expansion has some of the most boring, forgiving, & dumbed-down designs the game has EVER seen in its lifespan. That quote you took of me here is me giving input that blizzard needs to start creating a design that will reward good players that took the time to learn the spec in/out & make bad players have to improve through experience to become as good.
Dance isn’t the only culprit as to why our design is bad, yes. However Dance plays the biggest part of them all.
By having Multi - Dance charges it makes them have to design Sub on eggshells.
“Well we cant buff their sustain because they already have multiple Dances”
“Well we cant bring back any CC, even though the playerbase WANTS this and it would be more skillful to have because, well they have multiple dance charges to be a cheapshot bot!”
It’s not about getting the same results that you can get with Assassination. It’s about saving the beloved spec that so many have loved over the years, a spec that once had a title of being the most skillful & flashy in the hands of a good player. This is no longer the case (The only thing I will say is that it is still byfar more skillful/flashy than Assassination currently is in PvP, but that isn’t saying much)
Obviously you are a different person than I am addressing in my post, but I hope Grit reads this part as well because this further backs my point. Blizzard has to design Sub on eggshells because 1 incorrect step could make the spec absolutely insane, whether it be from an OP perspective or Trash perspective, its why Multi - Dance is NOT healthy for the spec.
Grit, end result here is that from my perspective of this argument with you, it appears that you value & like BFA-Sub design moreso than its previous iterations, which is fine. Your entitled to your opinion, but don’t go making baseless & quite frankly dumb accusations to somebody who actually wants sub to improve to a level that it used to be.
This is another sneaky nerf Rogues post or a post from a Rogue who hasn’t played Subtlety in years.
show of a gearing system.