There is a reason why I said don’t google the images, there is photographic evidence with the Ukrainian Famine. I’m not saying that there wasn’t all kinds of bad things happening, the opposite actually. I also hate what the British did to the Pontiac tribe as well.
The point I was trying to make is famines dont seem to be inherent to any ideology. They happen in Capitalist and Monarchist countries as well.
Not disagreeing. This all came about because people want to whitewash the French Revolution.
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Ah, thats fair, though the French people them selves still tend to view the French revolution with rose tinted glasses.
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The Defias were the product of the Stormwind negligence, not the root or the obstacle.
They were literally the product of Lady Prestor’s manipulations. They made a whole comic book about it. The masons rebuilt Stormwind, and then she convinced the nobles to try and stiff them. This led to the riots, and the initial formation, but then Varian offered to pay from the crown’s coffers instead. But at this point, led by VanCleef, the masons decided they wanted more money, and demanded an amount so huge that even Varian couldn’t pay for it. Cue the riots, and then Tiffin being killed, and they all ran off to be bandits.
The Defias were not nice people, they were initially wronged but then decided to double down on their actions. Edwin VanCleef decided to make an incredibly expensive, giant warship to attack Stormwind that probably cost almost as much as what the masons were originally owed, he was an utter villain. So was/is his daughter, though she gets a bit of a pass because she was literally a traumatized teenager in Cata.
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It probably didnt take much to convince the nobles to steal from the Masons. Being talked into committing a terrible crime, does not lessen your guilt in the slightest.
In his copious free time between dealing with demon invasions and Sylvanas deciding to start a war? What, exactly, is anyone supposed to do under the circumstances the game keeps tossing at them?
Realistically, the world-ending crisis a year cycle of Azeroth should have seen everyone dead already.
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Yes, I’m sure they were more than willing to resist an ancient and charismatic disguised Black Dragon who had been part of the human nobility for centuries. It’s not like she was able to fool pretty much everyone for decades. The Prestor family were actual nobility, and had been for a pretty long time, given that old Deathwing’s alter ego was influential and high up enough on the food chain to be a potential suitor to literal princesses.
The nobles certainly weren’t angels, but even dutiful ones would have been swayed eventually by the will of a dragon as powerful as Onyxia. In any case, the point is moot, because once he learned of the masons being stiffed, Varian immediately offered to pay up from his own coffers. The masons were the ones who escalated it, not the kingdom. And even after all that, Varian certainly didn’t let the nobles off easy. There is no real nobility in Stormwind any more, at least none with any real power like we see in Kul Tiras. He dismantled their authority over time, the only nobles really left are the ones who are actually competent and fight on the front lines with everyone else.
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It’s also perhaps worth noting that the Stormwind nobility was a mess ever since the First War. First a ton of them got wiped out at Karazhan during the battle between Medivh and Aegwynn, then any number would have been slaughtered in defense of or during the fall of Stormwind.
By the time between WC3 and WoW, the Stormwind House of Nobles that was being manipulated by Onyxia was in all likelihood full of young and inexperienced (and so easily misled) cousins and younger sons/daughters whose educations in statecraft were incomplete by virtue of never expecting to actually inherit.
We actually don’t know how noble the Prestors were; the Kirin Tor’s agents turned Lordaeron upside-down trying to trace the family’s history and connections and came up empty-handed, and their trail went cold when Deathwing pulled up stakes and went underground after the events of Day of the Dragon. (Presumably Katrana/Onyxia was able to avoid similar scrutiny due to the Kirin Tor being focused on rebuilding Dalaran in the wake of the Third War.) So it’s entirely possible that the noble background of the Prestors was wholly fabricated through false records and magical obfuscation.
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That’s true, I’d forgotten about that. But in a way that just makes the manipulation all the more plausible when it comes to Onyxia. She probably had most of the court dancing to her whims by the time we finally killed her. I almost suspect the reason she worked to orchestrate Varian vanishing was because he probably went ham on the nobility after the riots and she no longer had much of a court to pull strings in.
Raselle is one of the best posters on here tbh. always insightful.
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I may have imagined this but wasn’t it stated that Orgrimmar does in fact of a enough lumber to meet their needs, and the attacking of Night Elf territories was just them wanting a fight (this was during Garrosh’s reign)?
Not quite. After the Battle of Mount Hyjal, the night elves were in fact giving the orcs lumber all the way through Vanilla to the end of Wrath or so. However, in their eternal wisdom, the orcs decided they wanted more lumber, which is where the Warsong come in, so they could take more than the night elves were willing to give. This was allowed under Thrall’s rule for years, despite canonically the night elves were still giving them lumber as best they could.
After the Wrathgate, and the Broken Front, it was assumed that the Horde and Alliance were at war, so the lumber trade stopped. That was when the Horde went all out to take as much as they ‘needed’, in a sort of twisted cycle. They used the need for resources as an excuse for war, but they only needed as much lumber as they did because of the war itself. And in the end they were given Stonetalon and Azshara in exchange for leaving Ashenvale alone. This was of course after they’d gone and wiped out a bunch of nelves over the course of the war, and completely wrecked the environment of Stonetalon and most likely Azshara, in the end.
Yet I still sometimes see posters saying the orcs need more lumber still, which means they must eat the stuff or something.
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Anduin won’t be any different for the economy either… overspending if useless spies, constantly making room to get more refugees in instead of trying to get them back on their feet… yeah.
The abysmal failure for the money he spent on battle for lordaeron. They “won” but retreated to arathi? Makes no sense
Van’Cleef, didn’t build a warship, he found an Ogre Juggernaut and had planned to unleash her upon Stormwind probably to undo the work he and the defias were coerced to do for free.
Even after Onyxia was uncovered, Varian couls have sent a convoy full of gold and full pardons for every single defias member so that they may live the rest of their lives as free men to work, buy and travel as they choose. But instead Varian sent adventures to kill them. Thats noy governance, thats arrogance amd greed.
At that point the Kingdom of Azeroth (Stormwind) was the last of three human kingdoms om the face of the planet; he didn’t have that many economic competitors.
To be fare, the outcome of battle for Lordaeron was more in the hands of Malfurion and Jaina Proudmoor than the boy king and Sylvanas’s blight.
he made them the offer to pay them the agreed amount after the Nobles declined. At that point Onixya had already convinced them to become bandits. Nothing Varian could have done before or after would have changed them from being bandits.
Even the Assistance and supplies that Varian sent from Stormwind were attacked and taken by the Defias so they could hold it over the civilians in the region.
Defias may have been good men and women once but now they are bandits that are murder hobo’s.
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Paying someone the agreed amount after the deadline has been far exceeded is not only a breach of contract but an insult. Varian should have offered tripple and full clemency and accommodation to anyone willing to take it. Eventually even the hard liners would have walk off the ship; Except maybe those outlaws who came from the Horde.
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LOL, this is the funniest thing i’ve read in a while. They literally killed his wife and you want him to pay them more and offer them clemency after all the murders and destruction they have caused.
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